Gross Weight?

[t j]

My operating limitations have this statement;

Following satisfactory
completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______,
and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”

Some experimentals built in the past do not have this statement in their operating limitations, according to the owners. V speeds are determined at maximum weight, so if you see this in the operating limitations ask the owner for the documentation of it. I put the statement in the aircraft log book.

[gbright]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I have ruled out one Fox because of an interesting dilemma:

The weight and balance is dated the day of the FAA sign off. It shows the gross weight as 1320.

The data plate is fully filled out with model, serial number, and a gross of 1550 !

In this case, I am guessing (!) the data plate rules.

This is an interesting conflict.

Blue skies today, you can see 70 miles from 3500 ft.

Cheers, Grant

[RobS]

It is an interesting and common dilemma! There were a number of planes I considered, only to discover it's MGTOW was above the LSA limit.

Without any change in the 3rd class medical rule, it would seem new kits listing 1320 as the limit would provide more resale opportunities - considering the aircraft could structurally handle considerably more weight. No doubt folks building kits before the LSA rules came out wanted to make the MGTOW match what the kit allowed - and that proves to be a dilemma for those of us needing/wanting an LSA.

Indecision on the FAA's part has caused much heartburn!! And who knows if we will ever get a decision . . . .

[t j]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I have ruled out one Fox because of an interesting dilemma:

The weight and balance is dated the day of the FAA sign off. It shows the gross weight as 1320.

The data plate is fully filled out with model, serial number, and a gross of 1550 !

In this case, I am guessing (!) the data plate rules.

This is an interesting conflict.

Blue skies today, you can see 70 miles from 3500 ft.

Cheers, Grant

Yes, it is odd that the inspector didn't catch that.

[dcsfoto]

I think the logbook entry rules. You are required to declare the Gross weight in the aircraft records.


David Kelm
7 SS 912iS

[Paul Z]

The FAA is concerned with Paperwork, let us not forget they are bureaucrats. Whatever the Paperwork says is what the FAA has for a Record, and if the Paperwork says 1320, then it’s 1320. But make sure what the Paperwork says at the FAA. If the Paperwork truly says 1320#s I’d remake the data plate.

[gbright]

Thanks Paul, I am waiting to see what the logbook shows. Will advise once I have that info.

Grant

[jdmcbean]

For clarity sake:
One should not remove and replace the data plate without understanding the rules governing that. It can get a little strange and I can assure you that there is a picture in the FSDO file of the data plate for that aircraft should an incident occur. The DAR and the FAA has taken pictures of every one we have done. 14 CFR part 43 and part 45

The Model IV 1050 gross to 1200 gross modification offered by DennyAerocraft and was done for float operations ONLY. Once floats were removed and returned the gear it did not apply and was once again a 1050. The equivalent of adding the 10-15 percent gross increase when on floats... very similar to what happens on many of the certified aircraft. This has been true to my personal knowledge since 1999. This does not apply to the Model 3.
There is no test data to substantiate this modification. We also have not been able to find any aircraft "DATA" to support the automatic increase of gross weight by 10-15 percent because it is put on floats.

The entry in the log book for the phase one completion should state the gross the V speeds were obtained.

The Weight and Balance sheet is required to have in the aircraft and should reflect the actual empty weight and balance with the gross weight. However, these can be (and have been) changed.

The Limitations, also required to have in the aircraft, may or may not have the gross weight shown as the phase one testing has not been accomplished.

So the log book will most likely be the bible... but if the data plate, log book and weight and balance sheet do not match it will raise questions.

Who will know?? maybe no one... but if there is an incident or accident the records will be looked at with more scrutiny by the FAA and certainly the insurance.

PS.. there is no requirement to have the gross weight on the data plate. But if it is you can bet it will be used.

[gbright]

I got the answer.

Paul and Avidflyer had the answer. The paperwork submitted to the FAA shows 1550.

Form OMB No. 2120-0018 "Eligibility Statement Amateur-Built Aircraft," must be accompanied by a "Weight and Balance for N1234M" These two forms are processed by OK City and are stamped date received.

On the aircraft in question, the weight and balance submitted to the FAA shows 1550, but the weight and balance accompanying the logbook shows, 1320.

Consequently, the form submitted to the FAA governs, not the log book, nor the weight and balance accompanying the logbook.

Good learning exercise...I learned a bunch about what builders submit to the FAA in order to receive "Special Airworthiness Certificate."

Thanks to all you helped the learning process.

Cheers, Grant

PS. I bought a Fox Super Sport with properly documented paperwork submitted to the FAA for 1320!

[dcsfoto]

ok the FAA Form 8130-12 and W&B that is sent in at the time of certification is PRIOR to flight testing.

at the end of the 40 hrs of flight test you enter into the aircraft records the as tested gross weight of the aircraft.

that is now your gross weight because that is the flight test limit.

if you want to go to the 1550 you must go back into Phase one and
do a flight test series at 1550 lbs.

the gross weight declared in the aircraft records by the builder
after flight test is the official gross weight of the aircraft.
David Kelm FAA DAR