First Timer' Annoying Questions

[Far_Fox]

Hello Kitfoxlings,

I know these questions have probably been asked many times on here, but searching among threads I have not been able to find anything. Skip the the bottom if you don't feel like reading a lot of crap.

A little background on me: I Started flying when I was 15 at a local airport here in Michigan. When I turned 17 I went to a full time flight school in Daytona Beach, FL, and when I was 19 to an agricultural flight school in GA to get my commercial license, where I got hooked on taildraggers. Then it was off to college and long story short... I am 30 now and have not flown much since then. I had to put career life first, and now that things are settling down, it's time to get back into it. I think this will be the year I can make it happen. Thanks to the fact that the girlfriend hates my house (kitchens too small) I decided FINE, I will sell mine, stay at hers and the equity I get will fund a kitfox and a hanger (Not a bad trade in my book).

After talking to a few people at the local EAA meetings and on the internet... the following things make me nervous. The maintenance costs of owning a factory built aircraft is scary for someone who's not loaded like me. That is why I looked at building one.

However, the people I have talked to all ask "why the heck do you want to build one? If you are retired and have time then maybe building is a good idea" You should buy a cheap plane and start flying again. Well, I am not familiar with what annuals cost, which things go wrong the most and how much those cost to maintain. The last thing I want is to buy a plane and a year later have to spend 15,000$ in maintenance. Like I said, I am not familiar with these costs...maybe its not as bad as I think. If I did not think it was so bad, I would maybe look at a factory built Kitfox.

So this leads me to buying a kit, something I can fly north to remote strips and take my fly rod and camping gear. Something I can take into the Canadian wilderness and film epic fishing or hunting adventures. The kitfox seems to be a great choice, and I think I can fit both my dogs in the baggage area as well (bonus!).

The reason why the individuals I have talked to are telling me to lean away from building is the actual build time. So I thought I would ask you folks how long it took for you to build yours and how many hours a week did you spend working on it?

These people are telling me, no way will you have it done in 18 months...multiply that by 3. I have met a couple people who have been working on them for 6 years or more. I have read on here people buying kits as the 3rd or 4th builder on the kit and its still not done.

Well, I really do not want to spend the next 4.5 years building. I do not have kids, I am not married yet, and I think I am a fairly handy person when it comes to working on stuff. I would be able to tackle some hours a couple nights a week and at least most every weekend assuming the lady is content. Holidays as well. I feel that my time is running out and once I put a ring on her finger then the possibility of getting a plane will be much tougher!

What advice can you guys give me? How long did it take you to you build yours, and how often did you work on it? What were the biggest challenges? And, what are your thoughts on cost of maintenance on a factory build Kitfox?


Thank you for taking the time to read this, you guys rock.

-Adam

[aviator79]

You have pretty clearly articulated the factors that go into this decision that pretty much everyone here had to weigh and consider. I'll give you my opinions, which are free and worth every penny.

1.) Owning a certified airplane: Yes, the expense is real, significant, and ungodly. I'm in a flying club that owns a Cessna 177. As airplanes go, it doesn't have a lot of complexity to maintain, and it is expensive. We've had several surprise expenses where the parts cost $1000 or more, and then you're looking at $80/hr for an A&P's time. The annual is $1600 for the inspection only, it can easily be $2-$3k by the time we're done. If you buy an inexpensive plane, it will be old. Old things break when you start flying them a lot, and those things cost a lot of money on a certified plane. The acquisition cost is a secondary consideration to what it takes to feed and care for a certified plane. $15,000 in maintenance wouldn't shock me at all.

2.) Building. I hate to say it, but your friends aren't really wrong. More than 75% of kit aircraft are not completed by the original purchaser. Our EAA tech counselor says that most of the people he's known take 5-10 years to build their first plane. That's the bad news. The good news is that among kit aircraft, a Kitfox is a pretty simple machine, and there is tons of factory and community support to help you finish. The construction techniques aren't complicated, and the "hard" stuff can be learned through EAA workshops, etc. Without any supporting evidence, I would bet good money that the Kitfox averages are substantially better than the 75% and 5-10 years above. Still, 18 months is very aggressive. I've seen that quoted as an average for someone with a full time job and family, but find it a bit of a stretch if you poke around on this forum. You don't see many finished on that timetable. I'm about 2 months into my build, and feel like I'm on a good pace to do it <=2 years, but I don't have a goal date in mind. Instead, I use number of hours/week as my progress goal (15-20 hrs/wk). I think if you want to finish, you have to enjoy the building. If building to you is just a means to obtaining an airplane, I think you're likely to find yourself among the 75%. Also, if you think you might be getting married or starting a family in the next few years, you want to make sure that building an airplane is part of the discussion. Big life events like that are among the things that result in partially complete sold kits.

3.) The best value in general aviation, strictly from a cost perspective, is to buy someone else's completed homebuilt. You typically will pay less, all considered, than you would to build it. You can do all your own maintenance, use non-certified parts, and any A&P can sign off your yearly condition inspection. If you don't think you'd enjoy building for it's own sake, this is the way to go. Unfortunately, the Kitfox market is pretty hot right now. Airplanes don't stay on the market long, and nice 5-7 models can easily be $60k. A Model IV-1200 would be substantially cheaper, but they still don't typically stay on the market more than a few days.

[aviator79]

If I did not think it was so bad, I would maybe look at a factory built Kitfox.

I overlooked this last bit of your consideration of factory-built planes. Nothing I said applies to a factory-fresh S-LSA. You can take a class and do your own maintenance, use non-certified parts, etc. If you can afford to go this route, go for it. You'd get a great plane. The downside is... The market is hot. 2-3 year wait for delivery of a factory-built Kitfox.

[Far_Fox]

Man, this makes my decision even tougher. General aviation route is definitely a no for now at this point in my life. The SLA route seems good (especially if I can take a class to do maintenance on it), but for the 2-3 year wait I am pretty much in the same boat where I cannot fly. I mean if I get the quick build wings, and any other quick build options maybe that will help my time. My Goal would be under 2 years to have it done.

I was reading horror stories of people saying if you build one, you cannot ever sell it because anyone who owns the plane down the road could come back and sue you if something happens? Not sure if that is so true, I feel like you should be able to set the sell transaction up to take liability of your back.

Tough decisions to make! I guess now I have to decide if I want to wait for one to come up for sale, and jump on it. Or just tell the lady no ring until I finish the kitfox haha. Maybe then she will come help me a little with it.

Thanks Aviator79 for your input.

[efwd]

If you were retired, I would say under two years is very doable. I am working on my SS7 regularly and Im approaching my two year anniversary next week. I too am balancing a relationship, raising two teenagers and working very irregular shifts. I anticipate another 4-6 months just because I am not really engaged right now since the Electrical stuff is the last big aspect to do. Still need to install the turtle deck, flapperons and their rigging as well as the rudder cable rigging. I used Oratex too.

[aviator79]

Two years is reasonable, but certainly better than average. Especially if you don't yet have kids, and if you will enjoy doing it for its own sake, certainly achievable. You'll need to do something pretty much every day for two years.

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.

If you do decide to buy one, line up everything you need in advance. Make sure the funds you intend to use are liquid, know who will do your prepurchase inspection, how much insurance will cost, how you're going to retrieve it, etc before you even start looking. When you see the perfect plane, you will need to literally be on the phone the moment you see the posting, or it will be someone else's.

[HighWing]

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.

Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

[Cherrybark]

Where you build the plane can make a big difference both in the calendar time required and the probability of completion. I'm fortunate to be building in an air conditioned & heated, attached garage so it is a comfortable, convenient environment year round. Being able to walk through a door and be in the middle the project is very nice. If it were a 30 minute drive to an airport hanger, motivation would start to slip.

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

[Esser]

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

Two years already Carl?!? Time flies!

[aviator79]

Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

This is a very good point Lowell, and EAA's defintion of "unsuccessful" may include those settled out of court. And it could definitely ruin someone to defend himself legally, even if the legal outcome were in his favor. I have not heard of, nor can I find, any anecdotes of this happening, much less an aggregated list that I would call data.

The poster was told he could not sell his airplane, and all evidence is to the contrary. Amateur-built aircraft are sold routinely. The practical reality is that if you aren't insured against such a claim, you are *probably* a small legal target. But as you point out, it's always worth recognizing that there is nothing you can do to completely absolve yourself of liability if you sell someone something with which he can kill or maim himself. Caveat Venditor