Comparing Types

[Jen]

Hello

I'm looking into building a plane, and Kitfox S7 for LSA is one I'm considering, to be certified for 1320 and flown in light sport category.

I'm interested in hearing your input about it.

1. Can it be gross-weighted at 1321 lbs., yet still be certificated as EAB, yet flown light sport privileges?

2. How important is the ribbed fin vs. flat?

3. Even though I'm aware it's a different kind of plane, does the community have any thoughts about the Rans S-19 and the Vans RV-12? (With the Rans, I'm thnking too long build time, and the Vans, I'm concerned about the fuel tank placement, though they'd say the Kitfox is 15 kts slower...)

Thank you for any input, as I'm considering and comparing.

Thank you

Jen

[jtpitkin06]

Jen,


Do a little research for the last year. There have been at least three threads on “Kitfox vs (insert name here).” To evaluate other airplanes you really need to visit the other airplane sites. Do your own comparison to see how the airplanes fit your desires. Otherwise, you might as well go to a Chevy forum and ask what they think about Fords.

Here is some info to help you understand the regulations of amateur built aircraft as E-LSA or E-AB.

Any certificated pilot may fly an LSA, S-LSA, E-LSA. You can always fly smaller.

A Sport Pilot, as pilot in command, may only fly LSA, S-LSA or E-LSA. Sport pilots may not fly bigger.

If your airplane is certificated as Experimental - Amateur Built, and it meets ( and has always met) all the requirements of LSA; then, a sport pilot may fly it. If it has ever been operated outside the requirements for LSA (such as being flown 1 pound over 1320 lbs as a land plane); then, it is no longer LSA and never will be. That’s the way the regs read.


You will find that nearly all the builders and owners on this site are very happy with their aircraft.


John P
Greenville, TX

[kitfoxjen]

Hello John,

It's me. I'm the same Jen as above. I had to reregister, for some reason, but I'm here.

Yes, I do find it helpful to ask people for their opinions in comparing aircraft. Gems are in people's views, and I learn a lot from others. I would not find it helpful to just ask people about their own preferred types. Comparison ideas can be most helpful. So if anyone would like to opine, I value opinions, input. Sometimes ideas are shared that I never even thought of, which are important, as $50K for an airplane I plan to enjoy for a long time is worth looking before leaping, and also asking others what they think after they've owned one for some time.

And on considering options for the Kitfox, I'm interested as well in what people think about some options choices, such as the ribbed fin, the extra "false" ribs for the wings, fast-built options, etc.

Thank you

Jen

[kitfoxjen]

...If your airplane is certificated as Experimental - Amateur Built, and it meets ( and has always met) all the requirements of LSA...

HI John,

I don't mean to be thick, but I think I was unclear. Sorry. Yes, I understand what I think you're saying. But I think I"m asking a different question that I was unclear about.

If plane X can GW at 1550 lbs., and I build it intending to fly it under sport pilot privileges, can I, own my own, as the builder, set its GW to 1320, get it certified as ELSA (all other aspects meeting)? Is that builder able to arbitrarily set the GW down to 1320 so as to meet ELSA, all other properteries being met? Or does it happen that way only if the company has had a special approval for its type aircraft?

I'm getting at: I could buy the same airplane kit from Kitfox, yet I'm wondering if there may be a benefit in the future to certifying it EAB, for future ease of working with it.

Thank you

Jen

[Dave S]

Jen,

The builder decides what weight they are going to register the airplane at.

If you decide to register at any weight over 1320....it won't register as an ELSA.

If you decide to register at 1320, or for some reason at1267, since it is not more than 1320 it can be registered as a ELSA rather than an EAB.
John's comment that whatever it is originally registered at, it stays at with regard to ELSA qualifying. If it was registered as an EAB...it can never be changed to ELSA.

People will, for whatever reason, pick a weight other than 1550 or 1320 and that can be done; However, the weight you pick determines if it can go ELSA or EAB. Since the design weight of the current model is 1550...that is the weight most people will register at as an EAB.

Basically the Builder "approves" the weight used for registration.

I'd suggest that you get ahold of an FAA office (FSDO or MIDO {Manufacturing Inspection District Office}). The Minneapolis MIDO had a complete packet for builders which I got before I started building that had all the paperwork and a guide for what and how to deal with the paperwork. The packet is a pretty good road map to the paperwork including the Aircraft Testing AC. Seeing the registration form and directions will help a lot taking the mystery out of this issue.

The benefit to certifying at 1550 is less limitations on operations you can perform with the aircraft.

Cheers,

Dave S
KF7 Trigear - Flying
916ULS - Warp Drive
1550# EHB
St Paul, MN

[Dorsal]

I think RV makes a great kit and subsequent plane but I believe your speed numbers are a bit off.

[HighWing]

Jen,
Probably of even greater importance than the opinions of others is your intended use. If you are looking for light and nimble, certifying an airplane enginered to a 1550 gross weight will have an empty weight that will seriously cut into useful load and reduce some performance characteristics compared to an airplane engineered to a gross weight closer to the ELSA max. An example - the Model IV is engineered to 1200 lbs. And have been built as light as 604 lbs. in my experience. This would give a useful load of 596 lbs. To get the same payload the 1550 airplane would have to be built with an empty weight of 724 lbs. Doable, but a greater challenge. My new Model IV is 50 lbs heavier than the 604 figure, but you would have to come in at about 775 lbs.to equal my useful load. And keep in mind that all these weights are flying under the same wing.
Lowell

[jtpitkin06]

Jen,
If you are looking to the future for flying weights, consider the changes in the works. The AOPA and EAA have filed for an exemption to fly “no medical” that will basically take in recreational pilot airplanes. It would allow “no medical” flying of any single engine airplane with 4 seats or less, one passenger plus pilot, 180 horsepower or less and fixed gear. Controllable props are OK. It would take in airplanes like a Cherokee 180 or fixed gear Cardinal.

So how does this effect your homebuilt LSA? If you are a sport pilot, there is no change. You would be restricted to LSA aircraft. But if you are a recreational pilot or higher who wishes to fly “no medical” then a Kitfox built as E-AB could be flown at 1550. If the Kitfox were built as E-LSA it is forever locked in at the lower weight.

Evaluate just why you want an airplane to be LSA. For most, it is the “no medical” issue.
If the FAA allows the exemption I predict the sport pilot license and current interest in LSA aircraft will all but disappear.

Each builder has their own reasons and goals. I don’t care about LSA so I’m building a 1550 lb Kitfox.

John P
Greenville, TX

[avidflyer]

If you want to fly the plane with a sport pilot license, you do not have to register is as an E-LSA. It can be registered as experimental amatuer-built and still be legal for you to fly it as long as the gross weight is 1320 lbs or less. For a bit more info on this, google elsa aircraft, and look at the second listing. It's an EAA web page referring to what planes a Sport Pilot can fly. One thing with exp. am. built, you could put it back into phase 1 at some time in the future and raise the gross weight if that's what you wanted to do. (I can't give you chapter and verse on this last statement in the FARs, but was told this in a conversation with the local FSDO office) Of course then you could never fly the plane again with a Sport Pilot license. When you are googling elsa aircraft, look at the third listing also, it gives some good info on the differences between certifications and what you can or can't do depending on the certification. Take care, Jim Chuk