Kitfox Aircraft Stick and Rudder Stein Air Grove Aircraft TCW Technologies Dynon Avionics AeroLED MGL Avionics Leading Edge Airfoils Desser EarthX Batteries Garmin G3X Touch
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: Prop Choice

  1. #11
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Greenville, TX
    Posts
    640

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    Dick B,
    I think that’s a great question. We can all learn the thought process of how and why a particular prop was installed. It’s a much better question than one that simply provokes unsubstantiated opinions like, “What do you think of the Buzzbat vs. the Zoom-master prop.”

    The question promotes learning from actual experience. Thanks for your query.

    My aircraft has not flown so I wasn’t sure if my reply would be much help without actual Kitfox performance numbers. However, I decided the question is really more about the decision process than actual performance.

    I wrote this two days ago and sat on it before posting. At first, I was reluctant to reply, knowing the popularity of three blades and how some builders are fanatical about them. But these are decisions I made for my airplane, not anyone else. Perhaps the process will help someone.

    Everyone makes the “which prop?” decision at some point in their build. Usually long before it will take flight. You have to start somewhere.

    For my engine, a 100 hp Corvair six cylinder, I chose a 66 inch Warp Drive non-taper two blade propeller.


    Why two blade?

    There are dozens of articles published on two-blade vs. three-blade props. .. the latest is in this month’s Aviation Consumer. All of them pretty much agree that, barring ground clearance, a three blade prop is largely cosmetic. Face it, the guys with slide rules got it right decades ago when designing props. Since then it’s been just a few tweaks and twists but the performance is about the same as it was in the 60s. A correctly sized two blade prop will perform just as well as a three blade.

    Other reasons are:

    A two blade generally has less drag than a three blade prop. A reduction in drag can translate into higher thrust.
    A two blade prop costs less.
    and;
    A two blade prop weighs less.

    My selection is but a starting point. The only way to get reliable data on prop performance is to do scores of tests with different pitch settings using multiple props. That is a lengthy process the average builder is not willing spend the time and money researching.

    I built my engine under the guidance of William Wynne who has dyno tested more Corvair flight engines than anyone on the planet. He has hung not one or two; but many props on the front of these engines. He has hundreds of engine runs on his dyno test stand. William was quite helpful in choosing a prop for my aircraft based on similar airframes within the same speed range.

    The reason for the wide blade is also a result of flight and dyno testing. The wide blade Warp Drive absorbs more of the engine power and produces more thrust than the taper tip when loaded to the same RPM.

    Of course, nothing is as good as actual in-flight testing, so I can’t report on that yet. I have promised to publish all the figures, including weights and speeds when I get the aircraft flying. I’m starting to cover the aircraft now, so it won’t be too much longer.

    That’s pretty much my thought process of choosing a prop to mount on the Corvair / Kitfox combination. Because the vast majority of builders have a Rotax engine they may have a different choice. However, my selection process demonstrates I did not simply grab a prop off the shelf because that’s what everyone else is using. It was carefully thought out and evaluated using the best test data I could find.


    Let's hope it flies as well as predicted.


    Regards,

    John Pitkin
    Greenville, TX

  2. #12
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Goodyear, AZ
    Posts
    1,743

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    John,
    It looks like you have done your homework. I can't fault your choice because it is a fairly uncommon engine prop combination and who knows for sure. With the Rotax, however, there is a short history of guys trying two blade props and the typical complaint is that there is more vibration than with three blades. Most guys then go back to the three despite the practical evidence that the two blade prop is more efficient. I suppose the smoother operation could be considered one of the cosmetic benefits.
    Lowell
    Last edited by HighWing; 10-20-2011 at 06:26 PM. Reason: add phrase

  3. #13
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Greenville, TX
    Posts
    640

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by HighWing View Post
    Most guys then go back to the three despite the practical evidence that the two blade prop is more efficient. I suppose the smoother operation could be considered one of the cosmetic benefits.
    Lowell
    Lowell,

    I agree... on almost all aircraft, there is a perceived reduction in noise with a three blade although noise meters can tell a different story, and a perceived reduction in vibration possibly due to the higher frequency of prop pulses. I did some testing on my Cardinal RG with a two blade and another one with a three blade. Otherwise the aircraft are identical. I wanted to know how much quieter the 3 blade prop would measure. We were surprised to find the 3 blade measured louder by 3 dB. The meter used measured both A and C weightings. It was a real shocker... I still think my friend's aircraft is quieter and he agrees mine is faster.

    I'm not educated in the effects of the gearbox and prop combination on the Rotax vibration. Harmonics is really out of my area of study.

    JP

  4. #14
    Senior Member MotReklaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Anniston, AL
    Posts
    300

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    Just curious John, what is the RPM range of the 100hp Corvair?
    Thanks,


    Quote Originally Posted by jtpitkin06 View Post
    Dick B,

    For my engine, a 100 hp Corvair six cylinder, I chose a 66 inch Warp Drive non-taper two blade propeller.

    Regards,

    John Pitkin
    Greenville, TX
    Tommy Walker in Alabama

  5. #15
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Greenville, TX
    Posts
    640

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by MotReklaw View Post
    Just curious John, what is the RPM range of the 100hp Corvair?
    Thanks,
    Idle at 650. Max 3150 RPM for the 164 cid 2700 cc engine at 100 hp.
    3200 PRM for the 190 cid 3100 cc engine at 120 hp.

    Direct drive, no gearbox or psru.

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    scotland
    Posts
    33

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    In flight adjustable WOODCOMP VARIA 170-2-R

    SMOOTH TWO BLADE CARBON FIBRE PROP

    FULLY FINE 5750 rpm for t/o
    crank handle 25" MAP 5000 RPM GIVES 90 KTS

    MK 4 1050LB 912 80 HP ROTAX

    mine originated from the czech republic

    see it G-FOXF

  7. #17
    Senior Member MotReklaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Anniston, AL
    Posts
    300

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    Thanks for your reply John.

    I'm thinking your engine is similar to mine (O200) except Max RPM is 2750.

    What was your reason for choosing a 66" prop as opposed to a longer prop?

    Thanks,

    Quote Originally Posted by jtpitkin06 View Post
    Idle at 650. Max 3150 RPM for the 164 cid 2700 cc engine at 100 hp.
    3200 PRM for the 190 cid 3100 cc engine at 120 hp.

    Direct drive, no gearbox or psru.
    Tommy Walker in Alabama

  8. #18
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Greenville, TX
    Posts
    640

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by MotReklaw View Post
    Thanks for your reply John.

    I'm thinking your engine is similar to mine (O200) except Max RPM is 2750.

    What was your reason for choosing a 66" prop as opposed to a longer prop?

    Thanks,
    My max RPM is higher than the o-200. With the higher RPM the 66 inch diameter prop will not have excessive tip speeds.

    Dyno testing has shown the Warp Drive 66 inch to be the best balance of power, thrust and rpm for the Corvair when used on airframes similar to the Kitfox. I'll be using a starting point of 8.5 degrees.

    JP

  9. #19
    SWeidemann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    159

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    As you can see, I'm bringing up the old question again about what prop to use.

    My recently acquired Vixen 912ULS with about 1600 hours on it apparently needs a new prop and I'm looking for testimonials about what and why I should put on a specifically good prop. My run out one is a long three blade IVO which gives great performance but I would like to get one that will accept a nice looking medium size spinner too. Present front runners are: Whirlwind (OEM on Kitfox SLSA), Warp Drive, Sensenich, Kiev and maybe another Ivo (with a little spinner). My primary goal is reliable performance (don't want any trouble away from home) and fast cruise without overloading the engine. Takeoff performance is important however the Kitfox does such a good job at relatively short takeoff anyway so a few more feet and a slightly diminished climb rate is a small price to pay, keeping in mind the Light Sport gross weights are less than the design loads of the airplane.

    Any specific experience, facts or opinions you may want to share would be much appreciated.

    Skot
    Kitfox Vixen
    912ULS N24V


    Quote Originally Posted by Dick B in KY View Post
    Question for the general population - How/Why did you choose the prop you have for your Kitfox? I am building a SS7 with Rotax 912ULS and am interested in the selection process folks used to get their prop - Mfg, dia, type of flying, etc.etc.

    Thanks,
    Dick B

  10. #20
    Steves142's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Fairhaven, MA.
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Prop Choice

    I'd like to share my limited experience and hopefully get some advice as well. I recently finished a 2002 KF Classic 4 with a 912uls.Thinking I might want to put floats on it some day I went with an IVO medium 70" 3 blade ground adjustable. At the same time a friend finished an earlier classic 4, same engine with an IVO UL 72" 3 blade GA. He has a little cavitation when he throttles up, but no other issues. I had no cavitation but some what major vibration issues when descending or decelerating. Start up and shut down also seemed a little on the violent side. Carb balancing helped the vibration by 20%. I bought the blocks and changed to a 2 blade, which took 3 lbs off, and now it seems like 80% of the problem is solved. I lost a little in climb but the change gave me another 3-5 mph at the top. I love the looks and performance of the 70" 2 blade but I'm thinking that it may still be a little too heavy for the gear box.

    IVO Specs
    IVO UL 3 blade = 8 lbs
    IVO Medium 3 blade = 14.2 lbs
    IVO Medium 2 blade = 11.2 lbs

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •