Used KF-4

[bushrod]

I am looking at a KF4 partial build to buy. I am a student pilot working towards my PPL. I consider myself a "shade tree mechanic", I do basic repairs on my rides (basic tune-ups, brake jobs, oil svc, etc.) I "think" I can handle the build. I do NOT know how complete the existing parts & components are remaining. What I have seen in pics is the airframe, wings, numerous boxes, and a pile of documentation. I plan to drive out and look at the kit prior to making the purchase.
I am considered a "Seasoned citizen" at 67, semi-retired and living with a fixed income.
First question: Am I CRAZY for even thinking about doing this? 2nd: should I get my PPL finished before I start looking at aircraft to purchase?
I need a "experimental" aircraft that has folding wings. I could not afford to hanger the bird. My airport (kjzp), has very limited hanger space, and I do not plan to park it on the ramp.
So I am seeking your advice, opinions, discussions with my possible purchase of the KF4.
I have to think the fine folks out at Homedale will support my quest!(They want to sell parts!)
Thank-you in advance for your responses!
BR

[Slyfox]

I say go for it. Age is just a number, if you want to fly, get your ppl. As far as the airplane, good luck on that one, many other people are looking for a fox as well. Now with that said, I'm the same age, but for being retired, na, I said 2 years ago that I was semi retired, not on your life, last year I made more money than I ever did. this year well... I'm collecting my social security and working full time. how's that. I plan on flying with the wife to the factory flyin in June and I do have the model 4 1200. I've had this plane since 2004. I'm a little more than a shade tree myself. I've owned my transmission shop for 24 years and built an rv7 as well. so I'm very skilled. but I feel you can build an airplane. good luck and just believe in yourself and you will be ok. take care, maybe I will see you at the flyin.

[Eric Page]

Am I CRAZY for even thinking about doing this?

You do realize this is a forum full of guys building airplanes, right?

It sounds like you have more mechanical experience than I did when I started (re)building my Kitfox. None of the tasks are particularly complex, but some do require almost infinite patience and a willingness to admit that you don't know what you're doing and need help. If you can accept that you'll make mistakes and might have to redo some things, and if you have the ability to stick with a BIG project and see it through to the end, then you'll probably be fine.

Be very careful about buying a second-hand kit as a first project. That's what I did, and I've regretted it along the way. I'm sure I'll be happy with the end product, but it's been a major hassle and a significant expense to fix all of the first builder's errors. Inspect everything closely and if you can swing it, get someone who's familiar with the early Kitfoxes to go with you to inspect it.

Look carefully for bent fuselage tubes, especially along the bottom of the empennage. Wiggle every rib to be sure they're not cracked or improperly bonded. Look for corrosion everywhere. If the controls are installed, manipulate them through their entire range of travel to feel for roughness or binding. Check the flaperons for skin damage (and package them carefully when you move them to your shop). If the seller tries to frustrate your attempts to fully inspect the kit, or if you find significant evidence of poor workmanship, run away.

I would also advise that you get ahold of a Model 4 kit inventory sheet (someone on this forum may be able to help you with that, or maybe Kitfox can help), and make sure that all of the important (read: expensive) parts are accounted for and undamaged before you write a check.

Be absolutely sure that you get three documents:

1. The factory build manual.
2. The builder's log for any work that's already been done.
3. The original bill of sale from the factory to the first buyer. If it has changed hands since then, you need bills of sale for every time it was sold (including your purchase: use this form, strike out "aircraft" and write in "kit"). I cannot stress strongly enough how important this is. The FAA aircraft registry office wants to see an unbroken chain of ownership. I don't have the original bill of sale for my plane and I'm expecting problems when it comes time to register it.

Learn from my mistakes.

Should I get my PPL finished before I start looking at aircraft to purchase?

That depends on how committed you are to finishing your license. If you quit training after buying a plane, you'll have an expensive lawn ornament that you can't fly. If you're sure that you'll finish, and your finances allow both at the same time, there's no reason not to build while you learn.

If money is an issue, have you considered getting a Sport Pilot certificate instead of a Private? There's not much you can't do with a Sport license in a Kitfox and you can with a Private, and when MOSAIC becomes law, the Sport license will be much less restrictive.

Speaking of finances, you should understand at the beginning that building airplanes is not a cheap undertaking. If you buy an unfinished kit, it will likely have no avionics, no engine, no propeller, no paint, expired adhesives and covering chemicals, and maybe no upholstery. You could buy a small car for the price of a new Rotax 912. The Model 4 can accommodate Rotax 2-strokes, but you'll only find them used, as they're not manufactured any more. If your kit comes with, say, a Rotax 582, it will be long past it's due date for an overhaul.

I have to think the fine folks out at Homedale will support my quest! (They want to sell parts!)

Yes, the factory does support older models with parts (catalog is here). It's a good idea to identify what you'll need from them early in the game, as some parts -- especially for out-of-production models -- have very long lead times since they're made-to-order.

[bushrod]

Thank-you, and sorry for the long delay of responding. You have made good suggestions on what to look forward and what to expect with building a used kit aircraft.
In addition, I have to be sure that I can: get my 3rd class Medical prior to writing ANY check for a plane. I am working on that paperwork and hope to see the AME within a few weeks.
If I cannot get my 3rd class, a PPL is out of reach sa the LSA class aircraft will look better.
Thanks again, and just so you know, the kit I was looking at was sold a few days after I posted this-but my eyes are looking another kit that is closer to GA!!

It sounds like you have more mechanical experience than I did when I started (re)building my Kitfox. None of the tasks are particularly complex, but some do require almost infinite patience and a willingness to admit that you don't know what you're doing and need help. If you can accept that you'll make mistakes and might have to redo some things, and if you have the ability to stick with a BIG project and see it through to the end, then you'll probably be fine.

Be very careful about buying a second-hand kit as a first project. That's what I did, and I've regretted it along the way. I'm sure I'll be happy with the end product, but it's been a major hassle and a significant expense to fix all of the first builder's errors. Inspect everything closely and if you can swing it, get someone who's familiar with the early Kitfoxes to go with you to inspect it.

Look carefully for bent fuselage tubes, especially along the bottom of the empennage. Wiggle every rib to be sure they're not cracked or improperly bonded. Look for corrosion everywhere. If the controls are installed, manipulate them through their entire range of travel to feel for roughness or binding. Check the flaperons for skin damage (and package them carefully when you move them to your shop). If the seller tries to frustrate your attempts to fully inspect the kit, or if you find significant evidence of poor workmanship, run away.

I would also advise that you get ahold of a Model 4 kit inventory sheet (someone on this forum may be able to help you with that, or maybe Kitfox can help), and make sure that all of the important (read: expensive) parts are accounted for and undamaged before you write a check.

Be absolutely sure that you get three documents:

1. The factory build manual.
2. The builder's log for any work that's already been done.
3. The original bill of sale from the factory to the first buyer. If it has changed hands since then, you need bills of sale for every time it was sold (including your purchase: use this form, strike out "aircraft" and write in "kit"). I cannot stress strongly enough how important this is. The FAA aircraft registry office wants to see an unbroken chain of ownership. I don't have the original bill of sale for my plane and I'm expecting problems when it comes time to register it.

Learn from my mistakes.


That depends on how committed you are to finishing your license. If you quit training after buying a plane, you'll have an expensive lawn ornament that you can't fly. If you're sure that you'll finish, and your finances allow both at the same time, there's no reason not to build while you learn.

If money is an issue, have you considered getting a Sport Pilot certificate instead of a Private? There's not much you can't do with a Sport license in a Kitfox and you can with a Private, and when MOSAIC becomes law, the Sport license will be much less restrictive.

Speaking of finances, you should understand at the beginning that building airplanes is not a cheap undertaking. If you buy an unfinished kit, it will likely have no avionics, no engine, no propeller, no paint, expired adhesives and covering chemicals, and maybe no upholstery. You could buy a small car for the price of a new Rotax 912. The Model 4 can accommodate Rotax 2-strokes, but you'll only find them used, as they're not manufactured any more. If your kit comes with, say, a Rotax 582, it will be long past it's due date for an overhaul.


Yes, the factory does support older models with parts (catalog is here). It's a good idea to identify what you'll need from them early in the game, as some parts -- especially for out-of-production models -- have very long lead times since they're made-to-order.[/QUOTE]

[bushrod]

Thank you for your kind words. I am new to posting and don't know how to respond correctly.
I have to slow up and get my 3rd class medical again before I get starry eyes at a kit. Does not make sense to write the $$$$$ if I cannot get a medical license. Then LSA begins to do better. By the way, the lit I was looking at was in MO, and has been sold... I'll keep looking after I get my medical back. Thanks!
I say go for it. Age is just a number, if you want to fly, get your ppl. As far as the airplane, good luck on that one, many other people are looking for a fox as well. Now with that said, I'm the same age, but for being retired, na, I said 2 years ago that I was semi retired, not on your life, last year I made more money than I ever did. this year well... I'm collecting my social security and working full time. how's that. I plan on flying with the wife to the factory flyin in June and I do have the model 4 1200. I've had this plane since 2004. I'm a little more than a shade tree myself. I've owned my transmission shop for 24 years and built an rv7 as well. so I'm very skilled. but I feel you can build an airplane. good luck and just believe in yourself and you will be ok. take care, maybe I will see you at the flyin.[/QUOTE]

[109JB]

Note that if you go to an AME and he starts a medical certificate application it can only end one of 2 ways. Either the issuance of a medical certificate, or a denial. If you have not been denied a medical you can fly LSA if you fit the LSA criteria, which is

• Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate withdrawn; and
• Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.

However, if you go to the AME and get denied, then LSA is off the table too. Then your only recourse is ultralight. You can research what the requirements are for a 3rd class and if you have any conditions that would be disqualifying then you should probably just skip the AME. For example, if you had a heart attack or even open heart surgery, but have recovered, you are good without a medical and LSA, but to get a medical back after these type issues is costly and difficult. For LSA you could get the Sport Pilot Certificate. A kitfox 4 qualifies as a LSA.

[bushrod]

Great info, you have inspired my to hurry up on the MED!!

[Eric Page]

Excellent point, John.

Here's a pretty comprehensive article from AOPA about pilot medical certification.

And here's an AOPA article about the Sport Pilot rules.

[avidflyer]

Great info, you have inspired my to hurry up on the MED!!

I wonder if you understood John's comment. If there is any reason your medical could be denied, you are better off not getting one. To fly as a sport pilot, all you need is a legal driver's license. Sounds like you never intend to go into larger planes than the Kitfox 4, so you are probably better off just going sport pilot. Less training, and really all you need to fly a Kitfox 4. I was the second sport pilot in Mn when it first became available about 20 yrs ago, and have flown Avid Flyers, Kitfoxes, Chiefs, Champs, Legend Cub and others and have never had a medical. JImChuk

[odie451]

I have to slow up and get my 3rd class medical again... I'll keep looking after I get my medical back. Thanks!

When was the last time you had a 3rd class medical? If it was after July 14, 2006; have you considered going BasicMed?