vortex generators

[Slyfox]

I have vg's that I put on some 15 years ago. I only have them at 10% cord because that's what the kit said to do. can't say they did much except irritate me when I wash the wing. I'll leave them there because I'm use to it the way it is. I have speedster wings and a bunch of other things. I love the way my fox is. I have vg's on the horizontal along with the gaps sealed. I have elevator trim, electric. my plane will drop out at 40 just off the runway, so in ground effect. I never use flaps, why? I like the control and there is less to do when landing, I also generally do major slips with short approaches. I can generally do about 5 t and g's to most everybody else's 1. they are that short. yesterday I went to my rodeo field to do t and g's ( lots of holes and other junk) I wanted to see if I could do a wheels for landing. Ha! are you kidding. bounced about 4 times, not my fault, and just powered up and went around. my thoughts, I was faster, yes about 5mph for the wheels. that was enough for a rodeo ride for sure. I came back around and did a 3 point with it stalling out about 2 feet off, very nice predictable tail first and mains afterward, was slower by 5mph. hit the brakes and slide about 50 feet, oh there was snow on it as well. anyway, I have the grove gear maybe that made the wheels unpredictable and awful. but with the 3 point it was very nice and the holes and uneven ground didn't matter. my take, even with the slide I was stopped in 200ft. I don't need anything more than that. like said above, trent and the boys are extreme flyers and it actually reminds me of my old snowmobile days where guys had to do the straight up 500ft climbs, that riding use to scare the snit out of me, I wouldn't do that crap either.

[Maverick]

This morning I watched videos on short landings on YouTube by Trent Palmer and by BackCountry Flying. Then I went to the air and spent time flying slow flight. I was following Trent's recommendation to get up high and get used to flying in slow flight. . . allot. He suggested going to 5,000agl and pretending you are on a landing approach down to 4500ft at various slow speeds over and over until you feel comfortable with the way the plane handles at the different speeds and throttle control inputs required to keep the descent at a rate you are also comfortable with. While getting used to flying slow with no flaps at 55 & 50 mph and then with 20 degrees flaps at 50mph and finally at 40 degrees flaps, I noticed a couple of things.

The most interesting/disturbing thing was the buffet on the horizontal stabilizer when trying to fly with 40 degrees which went away immediately at changing to 20 degrees so my first lesson learned was don't use 40 degrees in my plane until I know more about that. Maybe the horizontal tail was stalling. Phil is this why you are considering VGs on your horizonal tail?

The second thing I learned was that flying with 20 degrees was comfortable but, like Slyfox said, I like the more responsive control with no flaps or having to mess with them. And the nose comes up pretty quick when you go back to no flaps which I haven't gotten used to yet. The only time I ever felt I needed flaps was in my 150/172/182 and then only because that is what I was taught. Then I got a J-3 and since then I've always slipped airplanes. In all of my other planes since the J-3 (all armature built experimental) I never felt that the flaps were worth the time to mess with them or didn't have them in the first place.

Back to the airport. I have been slowing to 80mph at the runway threshold on downwind, down to 70mph on base and down to 60 on final and tickling the stick with power off to get down to stall but, the floating was carrying me past the first taxiway exit requiring me to taxi another 1,000ft to the next turn off. Today I came over the threshold at 55mph and hit the landing line at 45mph and made the first taxiway turn off without having to stand on the brakes, just a little as I approached to make the turn off the runway.

I don't know yet if the first taxiway turn is more than 300ft so, I don't know if I got down in the length of a football field which is my goal. I'll have to find out the distance. Next, I'll try coming over the threshold at 50mph. And, I will spend more time slow flying with 20 degrees. I've heard one should fly with 20 degrees getting up and getting down but, I'm not there yet.

I don't think that the VGs offer enough of a benefit to motivate me to pursue them further. To those who like them, enjoy washing those wings.

[Slyfox]

first off my model 4 is right close to 650 empty. that's a huge thing next to the 5 - 7 aircraft. when I come in to land I generally have 70 than down to 50 over the numbers. yes when not using flaps I can pull back and have the tail drag on the ground. that is fun. Oh and I'm always looking out the left door at the wheels when landing. I have electric trim in the elevator so that takes all forces off the stick, it's fairly easy to pull back or should I say micro use the elevator, very comfortable. Now this is my trick, I have the throttle to where if I pull back sort of hard it will idle slower than 2000rpm on the ground, so if I need to get slower for a nice 3 point stall, I pull back on the throttle, along with my prop being able to go flat with a switch, , I can nail my landing right at the start of the runway, very cool. I can be stopped very quick and I always do a turn back after landing with a short trip back to the start of the runway. only time I have a problem is when the grass is wet, than I slide with both wheels locked. sometimes when that happens I just hit the rudder and put the airplane sideways. I'm sure some people that might be sitting in the runup area just shake their head at me. I'm out for fun and this airplane does it for me. I don't think I need to do anything with the vg's, things are going just fine.

[jiott]

Washing my wing leading edges (I do this after every flight) is the one and only reason I hesitate to install VG's.

[Shadowrider]

Really?? My airport is located next to Utah lake, with a population of trillions to the tenth power of bugs. Basically anytime other than winter you can plan on getting plastered by bugs, BIG ones. Enough bugs that the plane will smell like dead fish when it’s in the hangar. I wipe down my plane after every flight and having vgs adds virtually no time maybe a min at most. The bugs impact the leading edge and underside and rarely impact vgs. I think in the 100 hours I have one or two bugs hit a vg. I have flown without vgs for a season and with vgs for a season and have zero regrets or have it negatively effect cleaning. Along with that point, those that are clean ocd like myself, ceramic coating makes wiping the bugs off about a 5 min post flight job.

[SomeDay7]

Griot's Garage has a product called Bug Barricade. When going on a long drive through bug country I spray this on the front and mirrors. It is slightly visible but the bugs wipe right off.

[Delta Whisky]

Maverick - regarding "I don't know yet if the first taxiway turn is more than 300ft so, I don't know if I got down in the length of a football field which is my goal. I'll have to find out the distance. Next, I'll try coming over the threshold at 50mph. And, I will spend more time slow flying with 20 degrees. I've heard one should fly with 20 degrees getting up and getting down but, I'm not there yet."

I use the length measuring tool in Google Earth. Amazingly accurate.

[jiott]

Dustin, glad to see your comment about cleaning with vg's; maybe I am over estimating the problem. Will think some more on it.

[Maverick]

Thanks Delta Whiskey. 371 yards according to Google Earth. Maybe if I get down to fifty on my approach and use a little brake I can shave off 75 yards. Thanks for the top on G.E. I can see using that to gauge the length of areas out in the desert.

[109JB]

The 5-7 series is a heavier airplane for sure and that will factor in. In the Kitfox IV 1050 I owned I used to fly into my friends grass strip. I would use the first set of lights for my aim point and could usually get it stopped before his taxiway cutout which is about 300 feet. Definitely under 350 if I was trying. My approaches were 70/60/50, 70 on downwind, 60 on base and 50 on final. Always was power off over the fence, usually drug the tailwheel making for no/very little bounce due to no airspeed left. Depending on wind/turbulence, I would be anywhere from 1/2 to full flap. Full flap if not much crosswind and fairly smooth out. 1/2 flap if too bouncy or needing the better aileron control. Can't wait to see what I can do with the Kitfox IV Speedster I'm working on.