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Thread: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

  1. #1
    StrawRube's Avatar
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    Default Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    Why a Kitfox.

    I have been looking at homebuilts since 2007. I have been looking at the Kitfox and the RVs, specifically the RV9. I know, they are “different” aircraft having “different” missions. But I’m not really sure that super duper STOL performance is high on my list.

    On of the biggest stoppers for me (besides the initial financial jump) has been the cost of ownership. I read somewhere that the average homebuilder only flies their aircraft around 25 hrs a year. I’ve also read somewhere else that strictly speaking dollars, if a person flies less that 125 hrs a year, its better to rent (granted, this figure is based on a certified aircraft with the owner not conducting any maintenance).

    Okay, so I know that owning an aircraft does not necessarily make financial sense. So why own one? Why own a boat? The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys? I have reached a point in my life that I can put the finances together to buy the firewall back kit. I figure when all is said and done, I will have spend around $60K on my Kitfox. The price of a new SUV. This line of thinking is just going to come down to personal choices.

    Okay, so I have been looking hard at the RV9. Over 6,000 RVs flying, great factory support, great builder base, “matched hole” computer punched parts, speed, good short field performance, IFR capability, etc. So why not the RV9? I guess the biggest thing is that I hate thinking about the thing sitting out at the airport, costing $$$ just to sit there. And honestly, I can see myself being one of those 25 hours a year guys. And, if I built an RV9, I would put the O-320 in it, a great engine, but I want my flying to be affordable too. With the Kitfox, I could keep the thing at home and get it out when I’m ready to fly it. Maybe I’d fly it more if I kept it affordable too, especially keeping the horsepower down at the 100HP level.

    Okay, back up. How about the RV12? Nice aircraft. Removable wings. I can store this aircraft at home. That’s good. But I don’t really like its LSA limitations with gross weigh and max airspeed. I like the Kitfox’s 1550 gross weight ability. I learned to fly in Cessnas and there is something to be said about being able to stand under the wings in sun or rain. And I like that I can go back and forth from nose gear to tail gear in the Kitfox too.

    How about engines? Well, I admit that the Rotex engine has done a good job proving itself. I’ve researched the NTSB database of rotex equipped aircraft accidents and have found that they are usually the pilots fault. If the cause was mechanical, it’s because of faulty maintenance. I have my A&P that I haven’t used in years and have more experience with the “old tractor” Lycoming and Continental engines. In the Kitfox, I have the option to use a “certified” engine.

    What’s most important to me in the decision making process? I think the reputation of the kit manufacturer, the affordability of the aircraft after the build, and lastly the experience of the build itself.

    1) Reputation of the kit manufacturer: I think Vans is #1 and Kitfox is a close #2.
    2) Affordability after the build. I’m not paying tie down or hanger rental. I like the idea of keeping the engine size down to the 100HP range.
    3) The experience of the build. I like the idea of the building. If I wasn’t I’d be looking at an airplane like the Cessna 172. If I could fold the wings on the Cessna, I would probably wouldn’t be looking at the Kitfox. (Why not a Bearhawk? I guess I’m chicken (back to reputation). I like Vans and Kitfox because I feel like the design is proven, there are thousands of these aircraft flying, and I will be successful with the build. There is help out there if I get stuck. And again, no folding wings. RV-10, not affordable, no folding wings.)

    What do I want to use the aircraft for? Well I do know I want it to be IFR capable. Not that I want to do any hard IFR, but I live in the Sacramento Valley and in winter we can have weeks of fog. Sometimes the fog is thick and sometimes its not. On days that its not we might have a 500’ ceiling and a couple miles visibility with tops at 2000’. A few times I have departed on a day like this, popped out on top in bright sunshine and flown up to a foothill airport and enjoyed lunch in 70 degree weather. When it was time to go home, we shot an easy ILS back into the valley airport. Much safer that trying to find my way SVFR. And if you’ve ever flown down to LA, its much easier to just file IFR an let ATC worry about the airspace.

    What the Kitfox like to fly IMC? I think I’d like to install a single Garmin 430 in my aircraft.

    Okay, I think I’ve rambled enough. Thanks for looking.
    Last edited by StrawRube; 09-15-2011 at 12:08 AM.
    Bill Bell
    Elk Grove, CA

  2. #2
    Senior Member Wheels's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    I bought a flying Kitfox in November. I had a VG kit and a grove gear installed and I had seventy hours in a j3 cub. I have logged 210 hours in the Kitfox in the mountains of North Idaho since april. I cruise at 105 most days and 115 to 120 mph when it's cool. I burn 4.5 gallons per hour or less and I keep the plane in a barn by a 1600 foot hay field.
    For the money, I can't touch another airplane. I weigh 160 lbs and I am 5ft 7. That plane has an 85 hp rotax 912 in it.
    Math is math. Affordable makes it flyable.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    "I’ve also read somewhere else that strictly speaking dollars, if a person flies less that 125 hrs a year, its better to rent (granted, this figure is based on a certified aircraft with the owner not conducting any maintenance)."

    This statement is only true if you pay actual money for your new plane. There are thousands of Kitfoxes out there, and many "deals" come up each year (not so on the RV, they are just too few and too hot to find a true "deal" on). I bought my model 4 from a widow (unstarted with the rotax firewall forward kit) for just $5000 (but don't try this at home with an RV9 !!!!). Also, you can mount cheaper smaller motors on a model 4, so you are not stuck with a high dollar factory big bore sucking avgas all day long (and your wallet)

  4. #4
    Senior Member SkySteve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    StrawRube,
    You and I are too old to mind ---- the thing. Buy it / Build it, Fly it, Enjoy it.

    Remember, when you own it you can leave your headset in it 24/7!!
    Steve Wilson
    Huntsville, UT
    Kitfox 85DD
    912A / 3 Blade Taper Tip Warp Drive
    Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
    SkySteve's SPOT Page
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  5. #5
    Senior Member akarmy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    I'd be happy to talk with you sometime if you like. I built a RV9A and flew it for years before selling it and getting a Kitfox 7 that I currently fly. Send me a Private message and we can sync up.
    Andy Karmy
    Kitfox 7 - 912S - SOLD
    Auburn, WA

    http://kitfoxflying.com

  6. #6
    Senior Member DanB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    Welcome Bill,
    Your story sounds a bit like mine as I was going back and forth between the RV and Kitfox. In my case I was looking at the RV 7. It boiled down to taking a ride in both and evaluating what my flying mission would mostly be. I sure did like the quick point A to point B that the RV offered, but after a flight in both, the low and slow won out for me. The Kitfox is just a blast. The same can be said for the RV7 as speed and acrobatics for fun comes to mind, but you indicated the RV 9. I know the 9s wings have a larger aspect ratio (compared to the 7) giving it a slower stall speed and I believe they are not really an acrobatic platform. So are you sure that STOL is not on your list?
    Then comes the statement that you know you want an IFR platform. You can certainly put all the bells and whistles in a Kitfox, and if all you are thinking of is getting in and out of the fog, I see no issue with that. I just wouldn't go braving the nasty elements in this 800 lb bird.
    Bottom line, you need to decide what that mission is. Personally, I would have the best of both worlds in my hanger if my pocket book would allow it. I know some on this list do and that is a beautiful thing. Good luck with your decision.
    Last edited by DanB; 09-15-2011 at 07:55 AM.
    Dan B
    Mesa, AZ

  7. #7
    Senior Member SkyPirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    you got me on the "wife likes to fly" slyfox ,..I made the mistake of doing loops spins barrel rolls and scare the ground type landings with in eye's view of the wife ,..she thinks I'll do all that stuff with her in the plane too lol ,..but ,..a couple more road trips with 2 days of driving to get to point "B" she might reconsider,..the subject has come up a couple times,..and I wait now till I am way out of her line of sight before I open that can of "Yeehaa this is a blast!!" type flying

  8. #8
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    You have to decide what kind of flying you want to do. They're really 2 different worlds. I built, and have flown a very fast & efficient, low-wing all-metal Thorp T-18 for 21 years now. Yes, an RV-9 can take-off & land pretty short, but you'll never be able to get into some places that you can with a Kitfox. For instance, you have the capability to put much larger tires on the 'fox if you want to without looking stupid, and also the potential emergency landing spots, without hurting yourself or maybe even the airplane, increase tremendously.

    Do you like working with metal, or do you want to experience tube & rag? Do you like high or low wings? I've flown for close to 40 years, & I've dreamed about building & flying an airplane like the Kitfox for a long time, and am now just starting to realize that dream. The pure joy of flying means more to me than great speed anymore. As we get a little bit older, some of us also start thinking about being Light Sport legal. In that regard, there are things about the RV-12 that don't really appeal to me personally.

    The Kitfox community also seems to me to be a closer, smaller group of wonderful people, much like my Thorp friends. This is important to me. One final thought... the Kitfox is still a relatively unique airplane, compared to an RV. Guy's joke about it, but the RVs really have become the "Cessna's" of the homebuilt community - they're everywhere. No insult intended - they're great airplanes, & so is the Kitfox.
    John Evens
    Arvada, CO
    Kitfox SS7 N27JE
    EAA Lifetime
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  9. #9
    StrawRube's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    Gentlemen,

    Thanks so much for your thoughts. I really appreciate them.

    Slyfox, you really are spoilt

    C5Engineer, I'd like to take you up on your offer to get together some time;

    and Andy, I'll send you a message next week some time.

    For now, we are headed up to Reno for the Air Races.
    Bill Bell
    Elk Grove, CA

  10. #10
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking out loud, a long and meandering post

    Ok, I'll bite. Several years ago a group of Kitfox friends decided to fly to the "Dichondra Farm Fly-in". It was held at a non descript area of the Sacramento River Delta that was in fact a Dicondra farm. We were to meet up at Rancho Murietta and fly there as a group - 4 Kitfoxes and a Rans S-6. While I was at my run up area, a local guy in his RV-6 pulled up and asked if I was going to the Dichondra Fly-in and if so could he tag along as he wasn't sure where it was. Sure, but we are meeting at Rancho. No problem. We met on the ground there and the Kitfox group formed and took off with the RV close behind for about half a minute. Clear of the airport, someone suggested we drop down and fly the Consumnes river. We flew every twist and turn. Try that in an RV. Our guest was at a thousand feet flying 360s.

    Then on the way home from the factory fly-in this same group plus two more Kitfoxes were down on the deck - 50 ft agl - flying the river outflowing from the Rye Patch Reservoir South of Winnemucca, NV. On the same Air to air frequency was a group of RVs at 8000 ft. flying home from the Reno Air Races. We were on the same air to air frequency. Kitfox radio chatter - not much. RV radio chatter - RPM, Manifold Pressure, Airspeed.

    To Each his own, I guess. But these two experiences, in my mind at least, best describes the missions of the two airplanes. And this is what sold me in the first place - Factory demo ride; have you ever flown with the doors open - no - open doors and went down and chased the cows. Wow! That was 1992, almost tore my pants getting my check book out. Kitfox is still my choice hands down.

    Lowell

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