First Timer' Annoying Questions

[Far_Fox]

Thanks Jiott. 2.5 years is really good. Seems like I must look at it from the perspective it will be my hobby, but well worth it when finished.

[aviator79]

Which of those would you say may be the biggest time savor? Quick wing build+panel, or Quick wing build + Oratex?

I don't have enough information to answer that with any kind of accuracy. If you were going to pick one or the other Quick Panel or Oratex, I'd say pick the one that involves doing work you would enjoy the least. What turns you off more, lots of fumes, ironing, and spraying, or trying to sort out electrical gremlins?

I will say Oratex comes with more downsides than the Quick Panel. The Quick Panel's only real down side is that it costs more. While aesthetics are subjective, I don't think many people would claim that the finished Oratex product is more attractive than Poly-Fiber. It's slightly translucent. darker colors appear two-tone at the finish tapes where the material doubles up. There is a very limited color selection. The tape edges are "raw" instead of blending in. It hasn't really been around long enough to establish that it will last as long as Poly Fiber. To be fair, there are other upsides than labor as well. It is stronger and lighter. It won't lose it's strength if you get it too hot, you won't stink up your garage with MEK fumes, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is: The Quick Panel is substantively similar to what you'll end up with if you don't get it whereas Oratex and Poly Fiber have a lot of differences beyond just cost and time required.

[Dave S]

Adam,

Each one of us who has built a kitfox has their own story; and, the stories are many and varied. I think it is clear to you from what you have written, that you have a grip on the decision process and will figure out what works for you

In my case, I had flown way too many beat to crap rental planes, because they were the only ones I could afford, with my last four rental experiences before deciding to build all ending with a mechanical. Seen way too many junky electrical systems failing at inopportune times, corrosion donuts pressing up around rivets and on and on - all you have to do is be aware of the ADs for old aluminum airplanes to know you could get into an expensive proposition with those. On the other extreme - half million dollar 4 place new airplanes - what planet does that come from! Not the one I live on.

I believe you are correct that a experimental; home built is the most economical way to get a decent airplane that is affordable.

To build, a person has to decide if they the commodities that it takes.

1) It takes some time

You are 30 years old, you have a lot of time both to build and to fly. I started building 4 years before retirement and had both a family and job to take care of - with that, it took me 3 years and 1,200 hours time on task to get it done; and, the EAA tech counselors as well as the DAR (a very picky one at that) were very happy with the results.

2) It takes some money

But a whole heckuva lot less than the alternatives especially considering a person will end up with a new plane.

3) It takes some abilities

You are already an accomplished pilot so know what you are getting into. If you have done Ag applicator work - pretty sure you know all about tools and using them. I see you are a quality control person, which sounds like a technical deal. If you have mechanical abilities - that's a good builder start point.

4) Motivation

I am convinced that the difference between getting it done and not is most often a function of a person's motivation and priorities. I have a pal who has been "building" a kitplane for 22 years. My call is his priorities and motivation are not in line with the project - other things are more important for him. Certainly people have other issues in their lives that make it impossible to get it done; but, IMHO the biggest factor is motivation and priorities, hands down.

There are things a person can do to keep it frugal. I did not get any of the quick build items; but, from what I have seen with other Kitfox builders - the wing quickbuild option saves a tremendous amount of time if a person has the cash to go for it. Choice of engine, systems panel, accessories do affect the final cost a lot.

OK - on annual condition inspection - this is a big saving you get if you are the builder. Other than the fact that the Kitfox has been a very trouble free machine, I have never spent as much as $100 on a condition inspection and my condition inspections tend to very thorough. Oil and filter take half of a $100 bill; and, I have to admit, sheepishly, that replacing a nav light lens for $28 had to do with me, not the aorplane. Best of all, when doing your own condition inspection, you know the condition of the plane; and, you can do it to the highest standards.

Good luck in your endeavors

Oh - and there is nothing annoying about your questions - well thought out!

[Esser]

Adam, welcome!

You’ve had some good information so far so I’ll just add a couple of my thoughts:

I received me kit just before my 25th birthday. Luckily I had a great job right out of high school that allowed me to do that. I was planning on having a flying plane in two years. The only reason I really mention that is because I’m at year 6 right now and I could be flying in a few weeks if I put my nose to it but I’m waiting for warm weather.

Should you expect your plane to take 6 years like me? No. I had three major job changes in a three year period, I moved across the country, and my last job required me to basically go back to school making no money for the last 20 months. I’m just finishing up that training and am finally going to get a real paycheque again this month. There were whole periods of a year where I didn’t touch the plane.

Why am I telling you all this? Basically I’m trying to let you know that good intentions can fall to the way side but if everything in your life can stay stable and you can get a good ten hours a week on the plane, you’ll have a great sense of accomplishment in 2 years with your flying plane. I also recommend trying to do something small on it every day.

Quick build wing is a no brainer. It saves over 400 hours of build time and last time I checked costs $4k. I’m assuming you make more than $10 an hour so right there, that is money well spent. Oratex will save you a big head ache in time and equipment when it comes time to paint but it does have extra cost. Covering was the part of the project I hated the most so I would opted to save as much time as I could in that area. That’s just my personal thoughts on that though.

Although it was super daunting, the electrical was one of my favourite parts in the end. I really don’t feel an expensive pre fab panel will save you that much time compared to the cost. I don’t know that for sure but that’s my gut feeling.


Good luck!

[HighWing]

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.

Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

[Cherrybark]

Where you build the plane can make a big difference both in the calendar time required and the probability of completion. I'm fortunate to be building in an air conditioned & heated, attached garage so it is a comfortable, convenient environment year round. Being able to walk through a door and be in the middle the project is very nice. If it were a 30 minute drive to an airport hanger, motivation would start to slip.

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

[Esser]

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

Two years already Carl?!? Time flies!

[kitfox2009]

Hi Far Fox
Seeing as we are telling stories, here`s an abbreviated version of mine. I got me PPL in Watson Lake Yukon in 1962 when I was 22 years and single. Started on my Commercial the next year but got married shortly after and helped my wife raise 2 kids. Spent a number of years in the northern mining industry. Did not fly much for next 50 years!!
My wife then reminded me that if I was ever going to "fly again" time was running out.

After doing something similar to what you are up, to I decided it would very unlikely that I would get much flying in if I was to build from scratch or complete someone else`s project, even though I really wanted to BUILD.

Anyway I found a beautifully built Vixen with a 912UL (thought I wanted a conventional gear 100 HP) that had just over 100 hours and very reasonably priced. There was no way I could have built the quality for that price and it was ready to fly!!

I now have close to 800 hours on it, never added oil between changes, average about 15 liters at 100MPH, fly over the Rockies and out to Vancouver Island a few times each year. Even flew to the Yukon a couple of years ago. It was a long 1 day trip each way because of incoming weather. A cool 100 plus HP with tail wheel would nice, but, Hey "I am flying". That was much more important to me.
Over the years I have found life is full of compromise. I would never have had the time or usually the money during my younger years.

Also I don`t want to be negative, but I don`t think my Yukon trip would have been much fun with 2 dogs as well as my tent, sleeping bag, survival gear and clothes for a week or so. Pretty tight fit and I use a relief tube. Might have fun fitting one on the dogs, I have enough trouble because "relief and turbulence" seem to go hand in hand.

I really have to admire you "builders" and you partners. You both need DEDICATION and I imagine tolerance at times.
Have fun and welcome to this great bunch of Kitfoxers.
Cheers
Don

[PapuaPilot]

It took me exactly 2 years and 1200-1300 hours to finish my plane, which I bought second hand with about 20% of the work done. I did have to redo some of the work though, including removing corrosion that had occurred over the 14 years since the first owner bought it.

I'm not the fastest, but have been and A&P for 35+ years and had a lot of things available at the hanger where I work (machine shop, powder coat booth, paint booth, tools, etc.). All of these things saved time, plus I didn't have to learn everything for the first time.

As several have mentioned the best way to complete it is to do something every day, even if it is just researching, reading, surfing for info, etc. The hours I mentioned for building were only for doing the construction, not the research and reading.

Before you start you need to decide if you have the time (10-20 hrs/week for 2-5 years), money ($60-80k), tenacity, tools (more $), location (maybe doing some reno) and the willingness to learn lots of new things (maybe some seminars, joining EAA and going to Oshkosh . . . more time & $). You shouldn't give up everything in life to build a plane, but I decided I could give up a lot of TV, computer time, other hobbies, etc. to get it done ASAP. During the build I was really motived to get the other "must do" and "honey do" things done so I could maximize my evenings and weekends. It really has a lot to do with motivation and use of your time. Like others have said having the place where you can just go out and work on it makes a huge difference. I did most of it in our garage. I was also able to go to work early or stay late to take advantage of the hanger & equipment available.

Even as an A&P I decided to keep away from certified aircraft due to the aging aircraft issues, costs of parts, potential for ADs, etc. I have been working with certified planes my whole career, so I have a pretty good idea of the costs and problems that could happen. As an A&P-IA I didn't have to worry about the cost for inspections and repairs, but it still seemed too expensive to get a 30 to 70 year old plane when I could build a brand new zero time Kitfox for the same price or less then a certified plane.

Even better yet my new Kitfox is far better equipped than any used plane I might have chosen. Avionics for experimental planes cost far less than it would for a certified plane. I believe it would have cost 2-3x more to install the same type equipment in a certified plane.

FYI its been a couple of years since I finished my Kitfox and I picked up a used Wag-Aero Sport Trainer (Cub) to rebuild. I really enjoyed the whole process and am going to do this with a bunch of guys at my EAA chapter. But, I am leaving plenty of time to fly my Kitfox too.

[Far_Fox]

Wow, Thank you everyone so far who has shared a story. This has already been the biggest help in the decision making process.

I remember sitting in my Daytona Beach, FL apartment the day before my 18th birthday. I had no bed, no furniture and a pack of Ramon noodles in the microwave. It was the first week I arrived, and I thought to myself "wow I am going to become a pilot here, how cool is this". Little did I know how the world worked, and how hard it was to be that age and make any kind of money besides minimum wage. Paying for a phone bill and an apartment working two jobs (Bubba Gump Shrimp Company, and Abercrombie and Fitch) was next to impossible. That year I learned a lot about how important saving money was, how hard it is to earn it, and how easy it is to spend it on Bills. I met some amazing friends from Norway, Barbados, Germany and Sweden. After a year and just short of my private license, I decided the school was just sucking money out of my aviation loan account rather then actually trying to get me done quickly and for the least amount of money. I was tired of barely making rent, working two jobs and eating Ramon noodles. That is when I heard about this flight school in Bainbridge, GA called Ag-Flight. It had free housing, and they did not charge you per hour for the plane. It was one fixed amount, and you could fly as much as you want. To me this was real flying, no auto pilot, just stick n tail planes. It was also very southern and rural which I enjoyed. Each morning I would wake up, fly over lake Seminole to check out the gators, touch my wheels on the water, fly the river back, do touch and goes, short field landings, run one wheel down the runway and just simply had fun. It was a different way to spend 3 years of my life at that age when most of my friends were in college. I did not have a lot of friends, could not really relate to many others my age but the small young aviation community of people I met, I still talk to now. I have traveled to Norway, Sweden, Germany and many other places hanging out with the guys I learned to fly with. Even now, each summer I travel over seas to spend time with them. Only one of those friends still actually is flying today. I would like to try and bring back a fresh vibe to the aviation community, showing others they can build a new plane, with modern avionics for cheaper then you think. I want to film and promote Back-country flying adventures and explore new areas that most people don't get to. This all takes a steady job, and that is why I have been focused on career and college since then to set me up for something better in the future. I have worked in quality for 8 years now, working my way up to lead IATF 16949 auditor and Quality Engineer for small company while going to school for Chemical engineering.


Now its about the right time I think. I will start my LLC here in the next couple months and my first contract Job is suppose to start in July. This will allow me to have a flexible schedule, choose days to work etc. I think this will allow me some decent time to work on the plane each afternoon as well as weekends. The girl friend might get frustrated but if we can survive through this experience then perhaps shes marriage material right?


The down side is, the airport down the street is more of an executive airport and it is not really small plane friendly (from what I have heard). So the best place and home of our EAA chapter is a 30 minute drive. I do not have the garage space right now to work on a plane, and would have to rent a hanger for at least a year. Next year my girlfriend and I will be moving into a bigger place with a workshop. Once this happens it will makes things easier.

I have decided if it takes me 3 years, that is not so bad. I would rather have a new kit, then pick up the left overs of someone else (just me). I really wish someone would video document the build processes of a kitfox, I have not found anything besides a couple of time lapses on youtube. I will enjoy the build, take my time and not stress about build time (deep breaths).

I will list my house in the next week or two, once that sells I will pay off that aviation loan from 12 years ago (yay), and another student loan. I wont have much left but my monthly bills will now be reduced by thousands. Yes, those damn student loan payments. This will be the time slot between getting married and having kids where I feel it is right to start a build.

I wont be able to drop $20k on the first kit right away so I am hoping the aviation loan company can work something decent out for me with good credit. If I can get payments down to around 400$ a month or so then I will go ahead and drop in my order. If the payments are more like $600 that's not practical yet...then I will have to wait till next year to just pay cash. I will keep everyone posted, if I can make this happen I will start a vlog of the build.

I enjoy reading your stories, and thank you for sharing them with the new guy!