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Thread: Gross Weight?

  1. #1

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    Default Gross Weight?

    Where is the gross weight shown?

    Is it a decal/sticker like a VIN plate?

    Understand the weight and balance has it.

    Where else?

    Thanks, Grant

  2. #2
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    As you have stated, the gross weight is shown in the weight and balance. It may also be shown in the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) under limitations.

    Because the Kitfox is, in most cases, an experimental airplane, the gross weight may also be shown as operating limitations and listed on the airworthiness certificate. Check with your DAR.

    The builder is responsible for testing and determining the gross weight and making entries in the aircraft log book for various weights and CG locations.
    You load the airplane up and fly it with the gross weight and CG you desire. After a test flight you make a note in the log book of the stall speed and flight characteristics. Be very careful how you do this entry. Especially if you are operating as LSA. If you put a note in the log book that you had a stall speed 1 knot over the 45 knot limit for LSA it is forever out of LSA and now experimental Amateur Built. (E-AB)

    If I were concerned about LSA I would make an entry that the stall speed was "undetermined" on this flight. Reload the airplane with a CG further aft or decrease the gross weight and try again.

    So the answer for your question is multiple choice.

    Gross weight may be shown:
    In the Weight and Balance
    In the POH
    On the airworthiness certificate
    In the experimental logbook.

    fun, Huh?

    John Pitkin
    Greenville, Tx

  3. #3
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Grant,
    I had a bit of time this morning so checked a few things. Yes the Gross Weight is in the W/B. In my airplane, the only hard place I find it is on the Data Plate - of course I put it there, but there is a line for it on the plate. It is not in the Airworthiness Certificate - Photos Attached - nor is it in the Operating Limitations.

    For a Kit built airplane both for the sake of safety as well as liability, I personally feel that the real Gross Weight Designation would be in the builder's manual and in the Specifications designated by the Kit Supplier.

    I do know that in the Kitfox Model IV-1050 that a factory approved modification would bring the Gross Weight up to the most recent 1200 lbs. vs. the 1050 lbs. per the original design. The current factory can not verify this as it was done one on one to those who personally contacted the original factory. Unfortunately, this modification approval has essentially become a legend of sorts because of the lack of documentation. I have a close friend, though, that made that personal contact. I have no personal knowledge of any factory approved design modifications for any of the other Kitfox models, though there may be some.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

  4. #4

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Thanks John and Lowell !!!

    I will have to get pictures of the data plate and the log book entry for stall speed (if entered) for the Fox I'm looking at, hoping it is LSA.

    Spent the day at Triple Aerodome, in South Carolina, grass runway, 7000 x 200. Verh smooth too.

    No Foxes here But got a ride in a Highlander, Small cabin to me, but it did have tundra tjres, so the nose was HIGH enough to make taxi difficult to see over the nose.

    Yll take.care, and THANKS, Grant

  5. #5
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbright View Post
    Thanks John and Lowell !!!

    I will have to get pictures of the data plate and the log book entry for stall speed (if entered) for the Fox I'm looking at, hoping it is LSA.

    Spent the day at Triple Aerodome, in South Carolina, grass runway, 7000 x 200. Verh smooth too.

    No Foxes here But got a ride in a Highlander, Small cabin to me, but it did have tundra tjres, so the nose was HIGH enough to make taxi difficult to see over the nose.

    Yll take.care, and THANKS, Grant
    The data plate may; or, may not, show a gross weight

    Here's the reg on data plates...

    45.13 Identification data.
    (a) The identification required by § 45.11(a) and (b) shall include the following information:
    (1) Builder's name.
    (2) Model designation.
    (3) Builder's serial number.
    (4) Type certificate number, if any.
    (5) Production certificate number, if any

    Lines four and five do not apply to experimental aircraft so a data plate on an amateur built airplane may be as simple as:

    Builder - Joe Sixpack
    model JS1
    Serial no. 001

    ...and as Lowell has pointed out, other than in the w and b a gross weight may be hard to find;or, show up in unusual locations. Note on his airworthiness certificate in section E that limitations are part of the certificate. However, those limitations may be only "spins prohibited" or a whole litany of items. Stick with the W and B as it is the required document.
    Last edited by jtpitkin06; 09-15-2015 at 06:58 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member t j's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    My operating limitations have this statement;
    Following satisfactory
    completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______,
    and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”
    Some experimentals built in the past do not have this statement in their operating limitations, according to the owners. V speeds are determined at maximum weight, so if you see this in the operating limitations ask the owner for the documentation of it. I put the statement in the aircraft log book.
    Last edited by t j; 09-15-2015 at 08:33 AM.
    Tom Jones
    Classic 4 builder

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    I have ruled out one Fox because of an interesting dilemma:

    The weight and balance is dated the day of the FAA sign off. It shows the gross weight as 1320.

    The data plate is fully filled out with model, serial number, and a gross of 1550 !

    In this case, I am guessing (!) the data plate rules.

    This is an interesting conflict.

    Blue skies today, you can see 70 miles from 3500 ft.

    Cheers, Grant

  8. #8

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    It is an interesting and common dilemma! There were a number of planes I considered, only to discover it's MGTOW was above the LSA limit.

    Without any change in the 3rd class medical rule, it would seem new kits listing 1320 as the limit would provide more resale opportunities - considering the aircraft could structurally handle considerably more weight. No doubt folks building kits before the LSA rules came out wanted to make the MGTOW match what the kit allowed - and that proves to be a dilemma for those of us needing/wanting an LSA.

    Indecision on the FAA's part has caused much heartburn!! And who knows if we will ever get a decision . . . .
    RobS

  9. #9
    Senior Member t j's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbright View Post
    Thanks for the clarifications.

    I have ruled out one Fox because of an interesting dilemma:

    The weight and balance is dated the day of the FAA sign off. It shows the gross weight as 1320.

    The data plate is fully filled out with model, serial number, and a gross of 1550 !

    In this case, I am guessing (!) the data plate rules.

    This is an interesting conflict.

    Blue skies today, you can see 70 miles from 3500 ft.

    Cheers, Grant

    Yes, it is odd that the inspector didn't catch that.
    Tom Jones
    Classic 4 builder

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    I think the logbook entry rules. You are required to declare the Gross weight in the aircraft records.


    David Kelm
    7 SS 912iS

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