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Thread: Gross Weight?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    The FAA is concerned with Paperwork, let us not forget they are bureaucrats. Whatever the Paperwork says is what the FAA has for a Record, and if the Paperwork says 1320, then it’s 1320. But make sure what the Paperwork says at the FAA. If the Paperwork truly says 1320#s I’d remake the data plate.
    Paul Zimmermann
    LSRM-A
    Garland, Texas

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Thanks Paul, I am waiting to see what the logbook shows. Will advise once I have that info.

    Grant

  3. #13
    Senior Member jdmcbean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    For clarity sake:
    One should not remove and replace the data plate without understanding the rules governing that. It can get a little strange and I can assure you that there is a picture in the FSDO file of the data plate for that aircraft should an incident occur. The DAR and the FAA has taken pictures of every one we have done. 14 CFR part 43 and part 45

    The Model IV 1050 gross to 1200 gross modification offered by DennyAerocraft and was done for float operations ONLY. Once floats were removed and returned the gear it did not apply and was once again a 1050. The equivalent of adding the 10-15 percent gross increase when on floats... very similar to what happens on many of the certified aircraft. This has been true to my personal knowledge since 1999. This does not apply to the Model 3.
    There is no test data to substantiate this modification. We also have not been able to find any aircraft "DATA" to support the automatic increase of gross weight by 10-15 percent because it is put on floats.

    The entry in the log book for the phase one completion should state the gross the V speeds were obtained.

    The Weight and Balance sheet is required to have in the aircraft and should reflect the actual empty weight and balance with the gross weight. However, these can be (and have been) changed.

    The Limitations, also required to have in the aircraft, may or may not have the gross weight shown as the phase one testing has not been accomplished.

    So the log book will most likely be the bible... but if the data plate, log book and weight and balance sheet do not match it will raise questions.

    Who will know?? maybe no one... but if there is an incident or accident the records will be looked at with more scrutiny by the FAA and certainly the insurance.

    PS.. there is no requirement to have the gross weight on the data plate. But if it is you can bet it will be used.
    John McBean
    www.kitfoxaircraft.com
    208.337.5111

    "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    That is why I said check the paperwork with the FAA. I'd bet their paperwork will show the weight & balance that is currently with the airplane has been modified and dated appropriately. I had one person trying to sell me a Kitfox that had a weight & balance for both 1550 lbs & 1320 lbs. he said to pick the one I wanted to use. I hadn't thought of the fact that with the ID plate saying 1550 lbs, someone will probably flow it at that weight. By regulation if the plane had been flown at that weight it would no longer be elligable 1320 lb weight limit. Personally, with that in mind if you are looking for a 1320 lb aircraft, I'd walk away from that plane.
    Last edited by Paul Z; 09-16-2015 at 10:53 AM.
    Paul Zimmermann
    LSRM-A
    Garland, Texas

  5. #15

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    I hear you John.

    This Fox 7 has an interesting history. Built in Oregon, now living in the NE.

    I am guessing this Fox didn't have any pictures taken, because of the log book lack of data.

    The log book has the all the entries shown by TJ below, except the values are ALL BLANKs, i.e. no values filled in, just lines drawn to fill in the values including gross weight.

    The weight and balance is shown as 1320 and is dated the same day as the initial entries.

    The data plate appears to be glued on from the picture (a dot of glue in each hole, one side is loose and pulled away from the fabric.

    If the log book governs, it seems to be LSA confirmed by the weight and balance.

    Interesting set of facts.

    Grant

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    It is not very hard to get the paperwork the FAA has on a plane.


    Serial Number 27-7304926 Status Expired Manufacturer Name PIPER Certificate Issue Date 08/10/1995 Model PA-23-250 Expiration Date 06/30/2012 Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating Pending Number Change None Dealer No Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code (base 8 / oct) 50130327 MFR Year 1972 Mode S Code (base 16 / hex) A0B0D7 Type Registration Co-Owned Fractional Owner NO


    Registered Owner

    Name ELLEDGE KERMIT L Street 301 SHEFFIELD DR City SOUTHLAKE State TEXAS County TARRANT Zip Code 76092-7142 Country UNITED STATES


    Airworthiness

    Engine Manufacturer LYCOMING Classification Standard Engine Model TI0-540 SER Category Normal A/W Date 10/13/1972
    The information contained in this record should be the most current Airworthiness information available in the historical aircraft record. However, this data alone does not provide the basis for a determination regarding the airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. For specific information, you may request a copy of the aircraft record at http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/


    If you click on the bottom link, it will take you to the page where you can get the paperwork for this plane. I just picked an N # at random to show this and this plane came up. I did a copy and paste from the FAA website, and for some reason just the wordage showed up, not the form it's all typed into. I've ordered paperwork from the FAA for several different planes, and never saw any pictures that had been taken of anything. Not saying there aren't any, but none came to me from the FAA. On one plane, there were about 160 pages. That one cost about $15. Jim Chuk
    Last edited by avidflyer; 09-16-2015 at 12:11 PM.

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    I got the answer.

    Paul and Avidflyer had the answer. The paperwork submitted to the FAA shows 1550.

    Form OMB No. 2120-0018 "Eligibility Statement Amateur-Built Aircraft," must be accompanied by a "Weight and Balance for N1234M" These two forms are processed by OK City and are stamped date received.

    On the aircraft in question, the weight and balance submitted to the FAA shows 1550, but the weight and balance accompanying the logbook shows, 1320.

    Consequently, the form submitted to the FAA governs, not the log book, nor the weight and balance accompanying the logbook.

    Good learning exercise...I learned a bunch about what builders submit to the FAA in order to receive "Special Airworthiness Certificate."

    Thanks to all you helped the learning process.

    Cheers, Grant

    PS. I bought a Fox Super Sport with properly documented paperwork submitted to the FAA for 1320!

  8. #18

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    ok the FAA Form 8130-12 and W&B that is sent in at the time of certification is PRIOR to flight testing.

    at the end of the 40 hrs of flight test you enter into the aircraft records the as tested gross weight of the aircraft.

    that is now your gross weight because that is the flight test limit.

    if you want to go to the 1550 you must go back into Phase one and
    do a flight test series at 1550 lbs.

    the gross weight declared in the aircraft records by the builder
    after flight test is the official gross weight of the aircraft.
    David Kelm FAA DAR

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    There are a lot of people that don't realize the FAA keeps that in the record. I'm glad you looked into it with the FAA. I almost got caught by the same issue.
    Paul Zimmermann
    LSRM-A
    Garland, Texas

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Gross Weight?

    Exactly, Paul.

    That is why I posted "what I learned.' The paperwork at the FAA governs.

    I am totally happy with the new bird at 1320 ! It can probably fly longer than I can

    Cheers, Grant

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