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Thread: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

  1. #11

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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Just verifying Steve. I have my paperwork on order at this time they are very slow.

    If your logbook DID have an entry in there saying 'tested to max gross 1400lbs' for example..... am I correct that would no longer be considered a Light Sport capable aircraft due to the fact it's exceeded weight at least once 'since original certification'?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Dorsal's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Quote Originally Posted by wildirishtime View Post
    Dorsal did they keep a copy of it, or just want you to demonstrate you had it?
    Yes, it was sent in with the rest of my paperwork.

    This is the wording they wanted in my Logbook

    “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”

    I do not believe this inherently limits the max weight of the aircraft but as I stated before that was also submitted. I did my testing at 1400 but listed max at 1550. Again this is just what I was asked to do.
    Last edited by Dorsal; 01-18-2012 at 02:01 PM.
    Dorsal ~~^~~
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  3. #13

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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorsal View Post
    I do not believe this inherently limits the max weight of the aircraft but as I stated before that was also submitted. I did my testing at 1400 but listed max at 1550.
    It may not LIMIT your max weight, but does this statement in your logbook not prevent you from Light Sport operations since it clearly was, at least once, flown in excess of 1320?


    Steve etc: The Light Sport Aviation Branch told me, and I quote, "The definition itself prevents any aircraft from being modified to meet the definition because it states "since original certification". It doesn't matter why it doesn't meet the definition on or any day after the original paperwork was hung, it can not be operated as a light sport aircraft."

    In Steve's case, he has never defined a set weight in his logbook or elsewhere, however Dorsal has (maybe not at his own doing but still has). Seems Steve can shimmy around a gross weight question regarding Light Sport, but Dorsal can not (without risk). Am I right?

    ~Wild

  4. #14
    Senior Member Dorsal's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    [QUOTE=wildirishtime;21106]It may not LIMIT your max weight, but does this statement in your logbook not prevent you from Light Sport operations since it clearly was, at least once, flown in excess of 1320?

    Yes I believe you are correct but LSA was not an objective for me.
    Dorsal ~~^~~
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  5. #15
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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Was the aircraft "modified" after certification, or just flown over gross weight? I don't think having just flown over certified gross weight would take an aircraft out of LSA permanently.

    Bill

  6. #16

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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Quote Originally Posted by mr bill View Post
    Was the aircraft "modified"
    ....if your aircraft logbook says it was tested to '1400' for example, we all know it takes no modification of the airframe to fly at 1320...... so therefor does the FAA consider it a 'modification' to 'modify' your weight and balance paperwork and the logbook to show 1320 on the paperwork instead (thus making it Light Sport compliant?) I understand them not wanting physical modifications.... that could get dangerous depending on the plane (can you make a C180 Light Sport compliant by removing things?? hmmmmm).

  7. #17
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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Having read read the documents a little while ago, the FAA is very clear that an airframe certified to a higher gross weight may not be modified to be re-certified as LSA. A log book entry saying it was tested to 1400 lbs does not in itself take an airplane out of LSA. Having tested to a higher weight does not necessitate changing your weight and balance paperwork. It is really nothing more than flying over the lower gross weight.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Quote Originally Posted by wildirishtime View Post
    ....if your aircraft logbook says it was tested to '1400' for example, we all know it takes no modification of the airframe to fly at 1320...... so therefor does the FAA consider it a 'modification' to 'modify' your weight and balance paperwork and the logbook to show 1320 on the paperwork instead (thus making it Light Sport compliant?) I understand them not wanting physical modifications.... that could get dangerous depending on the plane (can you make a C180 Light Sport compliant by removing things?? hmmmmm).
    Continuously means continuously. Operated means operated. By the rules, if it was operated at over 1320 for ASEL it is not LSA and never can be made LSA in the future. I don't believe "operated" means you created a new W&B and got the max gross changed by the FAA. It means operated with the intent to fly. You do not record the gross weight of each flight so some may be hard to prove; but where that IS recorded, one flight over 1320 is all it takes IMHO. A difficult situation, for something like a Kitfox V with a design max gross of 1550 that the data plate may say is max 1320 or blank, with the W&B done for testing showing max gross of 1320. Obviously the plane could easily have been flown at over 1320 many times, but who would know? I have seen these on Barnstormers as LSA legal. Are they really? Just because they did not change the official W&B, if it was regularly flown "over gross", does a Kitfox V stay LSA legal? Doubt it.

    Same with operated with an air adjust prop. Fit it on and ground run, perhaps is ok; but operated with the intent to fly, and it is no longer LSA. Most things may not show up in the paperwork anywhere, but a logbook entry to add a CS prop is pretty hard to explain away. I have heard of people installing an electric adjustable prop with the control switch under the cowl instead of in the cabin, and calling it a ground adjust prop; but that is right at the edge of acceptability.
    Last edited by DBVZ; 01-19-2012 at 01:27 PM.
    Dwight B. Van Zanen
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  9. #19

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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    ohh boy so many opinions and even my quote from the Sport Pilot branch got no comment I know this topic sturs us all up due to it's swiss-cheese writing.... but here's the main question now I guess:

    I see how it can be aruged that a flight test does not define max gross weight... but if some builder in 1999 (pre-SportPilot for example) submitted a weight and balance sheet to the FAA in writing that said "The max gross for this aircraft is 1400 lbs" and that made it into his FAA record, then I'd assume they would not allow a modification to that
    paperwork and thus not legal to fly as Sport Pilot, ever. Who agrees with this theory?

    ~Wild

  10. #20

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    Default Re: "Since original Certification..." Editorial

    Me. And if the data plate says max gross 1400, the situation is clearer. The data plate can not be changed by the owner without permission. Not sure the original W&B shows up anywhere in the records the FAA keeps.
    Dwight B. Van Zanen
    Maple Valley, WA and
    West Columbia, SC
    PP/ASEL/IA
    Avid Mk 4 Aerobat

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