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Thread: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

  1. #71

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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Mr. Bryan first, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

    How this conversation gets turned around and into you, and others, believing that I am bashing on Nick is beyond my comprehension. I read about the accident and someone on here posted the FAA report. http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/sho...?t=9300&page=5. It clearly states that two planes were performing maneuvers showing the differences. i.e., Nick and Trent flying showing how one plane performs vs the other and one of the key things in my 16 yr old mind is that unfortunately Nicks plane has a different wing than Trents plane does and the results make me believe that Nicks wing might not be as good for the low and slow stuff as Trents wing is. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If I’m saying something wrong, or misunderstood what is stated in the report then I sincerely apologize. I personally don’t want to meet the ground unless it’s under my control. This is why I, can only speak for my own concerns, brought this up in the first place. If one was to build a new Kitfox which wing would one want? Which one is safer for slow, low and at times steeply banked?

    Now as far as the drags and some dream plan to go head to head with Draco and thinks it’s a walk in the park??? I think your running this in your mind far more than I am in my mind. I’m curious not boisterous at all. I believe in doing some due diligence if one has a thought about anything. This is the Kitfox forums so what better place to ask a question than from those with a Kitfox was my thoughts? Was I wrong there too?

    I had no plans to go into details about what stupid ideas I have until someone asked.

    Then I got comments and a lot of private messages about how stupid I was. “don't you know how much fuel those things burn?” and “what kinda rich F’ are you?” “your going to loose airleron control with that much power in he turns.” And several more about how wealthy I must be.. Sorry I ****ing asked.

    All this from a simple question about how much power can one put in a plane.

    As I’ve previously stated, the Rotax 915is just seems like a lot of coin. Nearly $50K of them in reality. I searched for answers/results about the 180 hp engine in the silver K7 but there are no results listed anywhere that I could find at least. The Rotax is a more expensive route to go so I’m curious as to what “viable” options exist out there. I’ve got a few turbines and the smallest one is the 250 which can be downsized to a C18 in 20 minutes but I digress.

    One of the things that attracted me to the KF and the Just is the side by side seating. I’m just not a fan of a tandem setup. The other planes are mostly tandem seating so they are not my first preference is all and they are significantly more coin too.

    I think I’ll just stick to reading instead of asking questions if it means everybody is going to take offense to my questions/ideas. Look forward to watching your videos and your conversion project.

  2. #72
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Rik, don't run off so quickly. As one who communicates rather curtly, and as a result, often misunderstood, I recommend you take the suggestions and simply adjust. You must recognize that there is a significant gap in age here if your 16. There is bound to be friction, especially considering that written text often leaves out the intonation and inflections. As you have said, you have had a number of personal replies. Sit back, reflect, take another approach and acknowledge that the comments on Nikks situation fell on some raw nerves being that these are Nikks friends here. Even in light of this conversation these gentleman are still offering to answer your questions and assist you in realizing a dream. They have only requested something that certainly can be delivered on. I've been there (more than I care to be). Hang in there.
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  3. #73
    Senior Member aviator79's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Rik, if you're interested in building a plane, Kitfox or otherwise, you won't find a better group of people than you'll find on these forums.

    Eddie has nailed it that it's difficult to interpret tone on a written forum. I'll say that I have interpreted your tone here as a bit brash, arrogant, and condescending, while at times demonstrating sizable gaps in your own understanding of flying, experimental aviation, and the engineering effort required to do what you suggest. Maybe I've misread you entirely.

    ...just because they do not have the knowledge/experience/desire to achieve certain things
    Comments like this directed at people who have been engineering, building, and flying airplanes far longer than you've been alive are not helpful in generating constructive dialog about your ideas. Keep your own tone in check, and you'll find the people here are more than willing to help. Comments like "Don't you know how much fuel those things burn", and "you're going to loose aileron control with that much power in the turns." aren't personal attacks. They are comments and questions of a technical nature that directly address valid issues with the project you're proposing. Not all ideas are good ones, and if someone thinks what you're doing is a bad idea, they would do you a disservice by not telling you so. Assuming your age is not a typo, you're not even old enough to hold a Private Pilot certificate for airplanes. Consider that the people on this forum have a lot of knowledge and experience that you do not. You can choose to benefit from their experience, or you can write them off as naysayers. That's up to you, but don't lob underhanded insults.

    As to the cost of the 915iS? I agree that the install is too expensive to be worthwhile for most builders. However, I think if you go ahead with your turbine project, your total cost will not be dramatically less. Developing your own firewall forward from scratch will be expensive and time consuming.
    --Brian
    Flying - S7SS

  4. #74

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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Rik,

    I am in "Theory" mode here, just studying for a Sport Pilot license.

    I also am probably undiagnosed Asperger's, or high functioning Autistic, so, I too, may come across as opinionated, brash and or arrogant, despite it never being my intent.

    Sit back, slow down, if you are only 16... get some real world experience under your belt, as soon as you are able to, before you start contemplating maximum limits on a KitFox build.

    It's always a good idea to learn to crawl, before you learn to walk, let alone run at top speed, at the max engineering limits. In due time.... In due time.

    I, myself, am thankful there is a BB to participate in here, to learn from the masters of Experimental builds. Someday, who knows, I may get to fly with one of them.

    Perception is everything with the folks here... many nuances are missing both texting and emailing, as well as posting here, vs face to face talk. I've not mastered it, so I try to tread veeerrrry carefully.

    It's OK to ask questions, always. But.... you must sit back, listen, and keep an open mind, not anticipate the answers you expect to hear.

    Good luck in your quest for knowledge, there's many wise old owls here... try respecting your elders, it will take you a lot farther, if you choose to do so. Practice patience.

    No one knows what Nikk did, unless you were there, and you saw what happened. Trent didn't even see what happened.

    I can look at trend analysis.... I can say that Nikk likes to do steep, tight turns, at least when the camera was running on him, for video's. I can tell you that no matter how much lift your wings generate, the steeper the bank, past 45 degrees, the amount of lift you get from any pair of wings gets reduced exponentially, that, unless offset by corresponding thrust, that's not going to happen in a KitFox powered plane, but might happen in a fighter jet, you are going to lose altitude fast in that steep, tight turn. Can't break Newtons Laws of apples, and gravity.

    But that's the theory.... No one here actually saw what Nikk actually did. So speculation is greatly not appreciated by his friends here, because no one really knows what happened. Other than looking at photo's and angle of impact, we have no facts. Without facts, it's all speculation. I choose not to speculate. I'll read the NTSB report, maybe the final FAA report, because those folks are the experts that can measure everything, and they WERE there for the aftermath.
    Last edited by NinerBikes; 12-10-2018 at 01:12 PM.

  5. #75

    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Rik, no worries, didn't want to discourage you from asking questions here.

    You did strike a chord with talk about Nikk's accident, but I will leave that up to Nikk to share when and if he feels like it. I will say that Trent was landed on the ground at the time so there was no maneuver that Nikk was trying to do that Trent had done, and I only mention this because I don't want you to make a conclusion about one wing vs the other based on the FAA report. Both wings are exceptional.

    You really just need to decide where you want the compromise. Usually the best way to decide is to look at what 90% of your flying will be, STOL or cruise, ect. For me my mission has changes many times over the 12 years that I have had my fox and the wonderful thing about Kitfox is that it can be modified as your mission modifies. I spend 80% of the time solo doing off airport flying and the other 20% I take one of my kids or a friend and do 3 or so long x-country trips a year. On x-country flights I love the standard wing and 110mph with bushwheeels, but on short final to a 200' gravel bar or a mountain top at 9000'msl I am wishing I had the STI wing. Aeronautical design is all about compromise. Then along comes a project like Draco that makes you think there are ways to have the best of both, but it takes an amazing designer (Mike) and some substantial funds.

    Having an idea is the start to all innovation, so run with it. But during your design planning you might run into a hurdle that can't be overcome. These hurdles sometimes lead to new and better ideas. For you to be dreaming up these projects at your age is fantastic. I don't know what your source is for your turbines, but check out the Solar turbine, it is an APU unit that has been adapted to the Helicycle mostly, put the power to weight ratio is awesome and the size would work great in a Kitfox. You still have the fuel burn issue.

    If you want more info and specs on the 180hp Titan engine set up, you should call John at Kitfox. They really haven't promoted it much and I think it is because the Rotax 915 is just a much better fit. I agree that it is just too much money. That is why I like the Yamaha option.

    Find someone local with a Kitfox and see if you can get a ride.
    Bryan
    Project Kitfox
    Bowen Aero LLC
    Kitfox Model 5 Lycoming O-290 D powered
    Building a Model 7 Apex powered
    Redding, CA
    http://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectKitfox

  6. #76
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Rik, wow 16 years old. All I can say is, reverse that and you have my age. OMG I let out my age, oh boy
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
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    constant speed prop

  7. #77

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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    As an aside, has anyone yet put in a Yamaha Apex1 FI motor from a snowmobile into a Kitfox? Supposedly 150 HP easy, with reasonable cost, compared to a 914T or 915, or even a 912 ULS.

    Steve Henry does run one in his Highlander, and did do quite well with it, time wise, in the STOL drag races at Dead Cow STOL drag races in 2018.

    Thoughts?

  8. #78
    Senior Member Esser's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Search YouTube apex Kitfox. My friend rick has one in his modified STi. He’s waiting for his final inspection so it hasn’t flown yet.
    ------------------
    Josh Esser
    Flying SS7
    Rotax 914iS
    AirMaster Prop

    Edmonton, AB, CWL3

  9. #79

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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    Lots of people have put more horsepower on a Kitfox, including the factory, but none of those options has every become popular, and for good reason.

    The 100hp rotax is incredibly light, efficient, and reliable, and provides all the performance needed by 90 percent of the people out there. For the remaining 9.9%, an Airmaster prop, and/or a 914 Turbo provides almost more power than you can use on the Kitfox Airframe.

    More power won't make a Kitfox go faster. Vne is 140mph, which I believe is about the limit of the fabric on the wing. Vno (bottom of the yellow arc) is 108 I believe. Climb rate might improve, but it will definitely reduce useful load, range, and fuel economy. Climb angle is actually more important, and the increased weight of a bigger engine will reduce the potential benefit of the increased power.

    If you want more horsepower, I think you should look at the Rans S-21 or S-20 with the 141 all-metal wing. It's a much better fit for that class of engine. It has a much higher Vne and will cruse at 155 all day with a 915 or a titan. Fuel capacity is also much greater so it can feed that bigger engine.

  10. #80
    Senior Member jmodguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the “highest” HP someone has put into a Kitfox?

    If you want to be like everyone else then by all means stick a Rotax on the front and call it good. If you want to be different and/or have the skill to tackle a complex project then do something different!
    Range is not a concern for 99% because our bladder or butt won’t sit that long.
    Going faster is not the issue. Everyone knows what the airframe limitations are.
    It’s all about performance.... Yes some of us want to hot rod our Kitfox!
    Build it, document your performance and let the group know what you found. The purpose of experimental aviation is to learn something. Kinda hard to do if you repeat what everyone else does...
    Jeff
    KF 5
    340KF

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