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Thread: Another tailwheel discussion

  1. #11
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    Another factor with the early planes is the rudder/brake peddles. As you push the left rudder peddle the brake on the right side comes toward the pilot making it possible to be pressing the right brake without wanting to. This works the opposite way also.

    I've had this happen as well. The only solution is to recognize this right away, center the rudder and apply both brakes to stop the aircraft. Yes, very scary. Especially when you're looking at the trees on a narrow grass strip.
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  2. #12
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    I took this discussion out of KFfan's intro thread to stand on its own...
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  3. #13
    KFfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    WOW
    I am going to look at that phenomenon tomorrow when I make my daily check. Have to make sure she didn't kick the covers off overnight....
    Lou
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  4. #14

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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    So Larry, any particular negative experience with the Matco? I have a couple hundred hours on my old one with no issues but not on a Kitfox which is an entirely different bird all together.

    Thanks

  5. #15
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    (Moderator: I didn't mean to hijack this thread for our new member, so maybe if possbile the posts about the tailwheel issues could be peeled off and put under a new title labeled; Groundloops & Maule Tailwheels?)

    Hey Chuck,

    I can't help myself from commenting about your post here as it is such a good example of the point I was trying to make. Sorry about making it a novel, but I felt this was worth a good explanation. So here goes;

    I learned how to fly in a J3 Cub in my teens. I didn't learn how to fly a tricycle gear until I was in my mid 20's. So it is safe to say I grew up on a tailwheel.

    Consequently, it was a real blow to my ego the day I am test flying a friends' show quality Avid Flyer (that flew perfect) when I am beginning to think after 4 botched landing attempts that I am going to roll his beautiful labor of love into a ball. No matter what I did, I couldn't land it without losing control of it (full opposite rudder and brake were useless as it was all happening too fast to do that, and had gone too far left to try and turn it 90 degrees to the right before going off the runway). But finally, after countless go-arounds.... I managed to get it on the ground in one piece. The builder was there, so we looked at everything, tire pressure, how tight the bungees are, toe in and toe out of the main gear, etc, etc. And after regaining my composure, with slightly different air pressure in the tires and another wrap on the bungees, I tried it again, only to find out it was still impossible to land . Again, after a bunch of almost ground loops that I managed to fly away from, I got it back on the ground. Now completely frustrated (and scared) I told my friend (who was not a pilot at that point) that I was afraid if I kept flying his plane that I was going to wreck it. Most confusing was that I had already flown more than 40 hours off this plane on floats, and all we were doing was trying it out on wheels so a local tailwheel flight instructor could start teaching him how to fly in his own airplane. So I knew this particular Avid well. Just not on wheels. And honestly, I had hundreds of hours in my own Avid as a tailwheel plane, as well as on wheel penetration skis, and never did I have an issue being able to land it. Also, fwiw - Just 3 weeks earlier I had completed 28 hours of instruction in an S2 Pitts biplane and was complimented for my ability to handle the airplane.

    So I was feeling pretty beat up having this little Avid Flyer kicking my butt. As a last ditch effort to figure out what was wrong with his plane, the builder suggested that there was a cam on the tailwheel that if removed would stop the tailwheel from swiveling, which he thought might help the situation? Admitting that I knew nothing about his Maule tailwheel, I very reluctantly agreed to try it just one more time (). And the only thing I can say about that experience is that it was absolutely amazing to see what one little screw holding a small aluminum cam plate on a tailwheel could do for an airplane. That little Avid Flyer went from a raging monster to a really nice handling, predictable tailwheel airplane that handled like it should. It was much nicer than the Cub I trained in, or the Citabria my other friend let me fly occassionally. I could hardly believe it could be that simple.

    The rest of that story goes like this; Now that the Avid was handling properly (but we didn't know what was wrong with the tailwheel so I told the owner to never put that cam back in unless he wanted some real excitement), I proceeded to teach his flight instructor how to fly the Avid so he could in turn train the builder how to fly in his own airplane. That instructor and I had a blast flying the Avid together for about 4 hours. He had never flown an Avid before, but after putting that one through the wringer, the more he flew it the more impresssed he became. I can't tell you how many take offs and landings we did, but there were a lot of them. He was extremely complimentary of the ground handling of the Avid compared to the "sloppy feeling J5" (his comment) he was instructing in at the time for tailwheel endorsements. After he was done with my dual, he did a bunch more hours on his own to satisfy his insurance company and then started training the builder towards his license.

    All was going extrememly well with the training until one day when the instructor asked the builder why the tailwheel wouldn't swivel? The owner explained to him our previous situation, but the instructor said he should put it back in as he was confident he could handle whatever it was doing. So the builder did.

    It was later that afternoon while they were practicing landings, the student lost control of the airplane just as the tailwheel touched, and they found themselves going across the runway sideways, 90 degrees . The instructor said he hit WOT (again no time for full opposite rudder and brake) as there was no saving it so he attempted to fly away crossways on the runway to avoid what he knew otherwise would have been a monstrous groundloop . The Avid having a high power to weight ratio did fly, but not soon enough. It was mid winter and there were high snow banks on the edges of the runway, and even though the Avid was beginning to fly out of trouble, the main gear wheels hit the top of the snowbank, flipping the plane completely on its back. The Avid was so severely damaged it needed wing repairs, strut replacement, and a new fuselage.

    I am pretty convinced that if the instructor didn't have a father that is known as a extremely thorough aircraft mechanic, that instructor today would still believe that he had just screwed up that day by not saving the situatiion from the student. And so would have I. Heck, the whole local aviation community was critical of the instructor for his "screw up". (reminder to self; never be so judgmental, especially of your friends)

    But his father found the problem after the NTSB left by just leveling the fuselage and inspecting operation of that tailwheel. And sure enough, with that cam reinstalled it unlocked with no weight on it. He knew it should require inertia and weight while on the ground to unlock it. So the instructor, the builder, myself and the father checked and rechecked that tailwheel with the cam in and out until we were all convinced that it was the problem. Avid at that time was consulted, but denied others having the problem. So we talked with Maule only to learn that they want the pivot pin on the tailwheel to be level, not canted forward or back when the aircraft is level, and for the rudder not to have so much throw that the deflection impact on the tailwheel arm can "shock" the tailwheel mechanism, unlocking it.

    Now personally, I don't think any tailwheel should unlock in flight, regardless of how you have it "set up". So I'm not overly fond of Maule tailwheels for that reason. But again, some work just fine on some of our Kitfox fleet. But I feel sorry for the guys that have either wrecked their Kitfoxes because of that, or think of themselves as failures because they just can't fly a tailwheel. I know that has been the case with many over the years, and this is truly sad knowing there was probably a high percentage of those planes just had a tailwheel problem.

    I agree with the comment about liking a swivel tailwheel feature. And in fact, there shouldn't be any reason you can't have a tailwheel that will swivel only on the ground. But when it breaks loose in the air, and you don't know that happened, you're not likely to have a good day.

    There's a reason some airplanes use a tailwheel that locks in a straight position. In a Pitts S1 if you land on a narrow runway and your tailwheel is at all crooked, because the airplane is so short coupled and lands fast you will be off the edge of the runway before you will even have time to react. So many install a locking tailwheel to avoid that issue.

    The Highlander group has learned that they don't like Maule tailwheels either after experiencing problems like I desribed (A friend just sold his Highlander with a Maule tailwheel to a guy who is using a tailwheel instructor for his transition training. The instructor ignored my advice about the Maule, but after scaring the bejesus out of himself with the Maule, that Highlander is now sporting a nosewheel...what a shame when it was easily fixed while still keeping it a tailwheel airplane ) . Now the Highlander group recommend a tailwheel that is fully lockable (Jim Pekola tundra tailwheel as I recall). Ironically, when its not locked it doesn't even use chains to connect to the rudder for steering. Rather it centers on a detent in the air, and on the ground you have to apply brakes to make it turn left or right. I've flown one and I liked it. Other people that have flown it say it is almost as easy as a trike, and I mostly agree. It will always be a taildragger, but it is a really easy one with that tailwheel.

    So, a Kitfox should not be a difficult to fly taildragger. Yes it is short coupled and quick compared to some other aircraft. But it shouldn't be a handful. If it is, check your tailwheel over closely. Especially if it's a Maule. And try it with the cam removed to see if the plane handles better. If it doesn't, then either there is something else wrong with your Kitfox, or you may need more training. But never just think it is you without first verifying the tailwheel working properly.

    Paul


    Quote Originally Posted by cgruby View Post
    I see your point. I've been slowly becoming acquainted with my Type III with a Maul TW. I have to admit, I've made some really spectacular landings, some bordering on almost an what some might consider an aerobatic maneuver. Allowing the airplane to yaw unchecked, will most certainly result in a GL, however, when everything else fails, there's always brakes. I have never considered removing the cam, I guess I like the full swivel capability too much.

    Part of TW training is learning to deal with the monster. When I was a 16 year old kid, flying a Cub, I made a lot of crazy landings, but all my 60 years of flying, I've never ground looped one yet. I can't even phantom an experienced instructor putting an airplane over on it's back due to a tail wheel becoming unlocked.

    Cheers,
    Last edited by av8rps; 10-23-2014 at 06:53 PM.

  6. #16
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    Paul - This was turning into a very good, very informative thread on the merits of tailwheels. I wanted to make it something that can be searched for, for future reference.

    S'all good.
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  7. #17

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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    Very interesting thread, I've got a mate with a KF and he has the cam removed on his maule TW ,he gave me a real rev about mine and as I'd never heard anything about them I just figured he'd made a bad landing and got a scare. As it is I have never really like the maule wheel on mine and have a new matco double sided pneumatic for my aircraft, hopefully it works well

  8. #18
    N981MS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    Just to give a voice to those with Maule tailwheels that "behave".

    I have had 2 and not had any problems. Just got lucky, I guess, since I did not know I needed to check them.

    One on a Maule M7 235 (about 150 hours).

    One on the KF for 700 plus hours now without any problem.

    I bet I'll check mine at next annual.
    Maxwell Duke

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  9. #19
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by N981MS View Post
    Just to give a voice to those with Maule tailwheels that "behave".

    I have had 2 and not had any problems. Just got lucky, I guess, since I did not know I needed to check them.

    One on a Maule M7 235 (about 150 hours).

    One on the KF for 700 plus hours now without any problem.

    I bet I'll check mine at next annual.
    That's what makes this subject so difficult, as some people have had good experiences with it, and others didn't.

    Unfortunately most that had trouble with the Maule probably didn't even know the tailwheel was the fault of their problem.

    Worth mentioning, I have a Highlander that has a Maule tailwheel. A friend of mine that flies bush planes for a living was leary of flying that very Highlander from hard surface because it was so squirrely, yet he's flown taildraggers his entire life. When I bought the plane the first thing I did was to pull that cam off the Maule tailwheel. Flew it home just fine, then tested it by leveling the fuselage, and sure enough, with the cam in place it would unlock with no weight on it. I'm still flying it with the Maule, but will probably put a Matco on it before I sell it.

    Paul

  10. #20
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another tailwheel discussion

    I'm not a big fan of Maule 6" tailwheels, but they have been used successfully on many different aircraft types for decades. It was the failure of a Maule tailwheel that preceeded the death of Ken Brock , a friend & well known aircraft builder, pilot, & parts manufacturer out of California. I don't like them, for that & a couple of other reasons, but the locking mechanism doesn't have anything to do, directly, with weight on the tailwheel. It is similar to several other designs in that it "breaks" at a specific angle of rotation. If set up properly - proper ratio between full rudder deflection & deflection of the tailwheel, along with proper spring tension - it won't break without some sideways force (i.e. - application of brake) while deflecting the rudder fully. This causes the wheel to rotate a little further (against spring tension) to the point where it breaks into full-swivel. Doesn't matter if weight is on the tail or not, although weight will usually decrease spring tension due to the geometry of a tail spring & the control horns on the rudder. Aviation Products, Lange, & some others work similarly. Scott & Matco work a little differently. I may not be clearly understanding what you're explaining, Paul, but set-up does definitely make a difference. Additionally, all bets are off if your wheel assembly is worn out, just like many things mechanical.
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