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Thread: Aoa

  1. #21
    Senior Member aviator79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    About a year and a half ago, our local pilot community lost two experienced, conscientious pilots to a departure stall accident. There are kids here in our small town growing up without their mom. According to the NTSB, in the decade between 2001 and 2011, 40% of fatal fixed wing GA accidents were due to Loss of Control Inflight (LOC-I), with the deadliest phases of flight being approach, departure, and maneuvering when the bottoms of the white and green arcs become meaningless. LOC-I accidents caused almost four times as many fatalities in 2014 as the next deadliest category (powerplant malfunction).

    Chuck Yeager probably has an AOA indicator built into his rear end as a result of flying many different airplanes to every corner of their flight envelopes. But none of us is Chuck Yeager. I can't speak for all of you, but I make mistakes when I fly. I get a little slow or steepen up a little to roll out on centerline because I didn't compensate for that tailwind on base. Maybe it makes sense to install an instrument specifically designed to help us avoid the type of accident that kills the most of our fellow pilots.

    I'm not criticizing anyone for not having it. I fly a certified aircraft without one, and certainly don't feel unsafe. But given the accident statistics, it's hard to call it a waste of money if you're building new and the cost is marginal.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Aoa

    I should have said, AOA is a waste of money FOR ME. I'm one of those people who run with scissors, drink from garden hoses, and sometimes drives a car without a seatbelt!

  3. #23
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    Hey Floog, sorry if I attributed something to you that is not quite true, but you did tell me once that you could make real short landings by coming in on the edge of stall and it was controllable. Coming from such an experienced guy I figured you must do this fairly often. Anyway, glad to find out you are more normal (except that drinking from a garden hose) than I thought.

    av8rps, the AOA instrument won't suggest anything about how to land your Avid. It only gives you a reliable progressive warning when you are approaching a stall condition. At your own discretion it just makes it possible for you to come in on a stabilized approach at some point just above stall (which you can choose for your own comfort level) without ever having to glance down at your airspeed indicator.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Aoa

    Simply put...........Stalling airspeed is a variable................AOA stalling is a constant.
    Hence an AOA indicator is a better reference in ALL flight attitudes regarding relationship to stalling.
    With that said.........probably 99.9% of general aviation pilots learned to reference airspeed on approaches, flight at minimum controllable airspeed and other flight conditions............it obviously works..........most of the time............but that doesn't mean it's the best either.
    Brian

  5. #25
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    Ok, I've been doing my research on AOA and have some further thougts:

    In the mid 80's when I was flying my super light Avid Flyer, using the airspeed indicator in the stall speed range was generally useless as it bounced around A LOT in the mid 20 mph range, probably due to the high angle on the pitot tube. So the more I flew it (I used to average 250 hours a year) the more I developed that built in AOA that someone suggested earlier Chuck Yeager had in his butt. Heck, I pretty much never looked at the panel to land my plane as I could feel the plane more than an airspeed indicator would help me by knowing the numbers. I didn't need to read numbers to know what I had to do with the throttle or the stick. So maybe I flew enough to develop a sense that many may never get?

    I will admit that when I fly with other pilots in all types of airplanes it seems that many fly their plane as I describe as "Mechanical, or by the numbers". By comparison, I typically fly by attitude, using numbers only as a reference. I believe flying by the numbers is probably the number one reason so many are having loss of control issues these days, and feel strongly that somehow we need to get back to training pilots to fly by attitude, not just numbers. I learned in a J-3 Cub as a teenager and was taught seat of the pants flying. I obviously will fly a high performance airplane with more respect of numbers, but the last time I was in a Glasair 3 I still flew it a lot by attitude. I'm guessing if I had a chance to fly the Space Shuttle I'd be watching the numbers close, but still looking out the window a lot (not expecting NASA to call me anytime soon)

    With all that said, my research along with the great discussion we have had here led me to this position;

    Maybe if every plane had an AOA gauge in it with audible warning in your headset, maybe more pilots would learn to fly by attitude easier?

    So after thinking about it a lot, I agree that having an AOA gauge would be good to have in any plane. I particularly like the audible warning part, as I doubt I would be looking at the gauge any more than I look at my airspeed indicator. I would be surprised if I would fly my plane any different than I do currently, but I do agree it would be one more safety device, and the more tools you have at your disposal for safety the better off you always are. Maybe it could help pilots develop a better feel for their planes and help to reduce the LOC accidents?

    And there is also the added benefit of helping out the next guy that ends up owning the plane. Maybe he won't have a lot of hours in type, or have that seat of the pants feeling that those of us that learned how to fly in Cubs have? Of course I doubt I will ever be able to part with my Kitfox, so I'm probably not going to rush to install an AOA anytime soon. But if the opportunity arises, I'd most definitely put one in.

    So thanks everyone for helping me to understand the benefits of an AOA more than I did when this discussion started

  6. #26
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    We should get together sometime so you can try the Mangy...

    You'll kick that cry-lander to the curb.
    Av8r3400
    Kitfox Model IV
    The Mangy Fox
    912UL 105hp Zipper
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  7. #27
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Av8r3400 View Post
    ...You'll kick that cry-lander to the curb.
    Careful, careful...you know there is a less complimentary name for a Kitfox

  8. #28
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    Yes there are. But we all know they are untrue...


    Just funnin' ya.
    Av8r3400
    Kitfox Model IV
    The Mangy Fox
    912UL 105hp Zipper
    YouTube Videos

  9. #29
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    Good catch Larry

  10. #30
    N981MS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    I do not think anyone has mentioned this but we all fly AOA.

    In cruise we maintain altitude/level attitude by referencing the cowl to the horizon.

    I do the same in climb, descent, and on approach. On final I regularly check airspeed and/or AOA meter if I have it.

    My Kitfox instructor had a phrase on approach that I found excellent. "That's the picture". Meaning that is what the approach should look like in the frame of the windshield.
    Maxwell Duke

    Kitfox S6 IO-240 Built it (Flying since 2003)
    Maule M7-235C Sold it (liked it though)
    RV-10 IO-540 Bought it
    Zenith CH-750 Built with 7 friends (DAR Vic Syracuse)

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