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Thread: Matco brakes

  1. #31
    Senior Member Dusty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Is that the recommended way to plumb your brakes?
    getting the air out must have been a nightmare!
    Did you de'mount your calipers or bottom bleed then reverse flow to get the last bit of air out?
    I am very interested to see how this works out as is something I have
    considered

  2. #32
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    Is that the recommended way to plumb your brakes?
    getting the air out must have been a nightmare!
    Did you de'mount your calipers or bottom bleed then reverse flow to get the last bit of air out?
    I would suggest using a "T"and then run separate lines to the uppermost fitting on the calipers. Then bleeding from the bottom fitting one at a time should enable all the air to be removed from the lines.
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

  3. #33

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    Petal, Miss
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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    Is that the recommended way to plumb your brakes?
    getting the air out must have been a nightmare!
    Did you de'mount your calipers or bottom bleed then reverse flow to get the last bit of air out?
    I am very interested to see how this works out as is something I have
    considered
    The brakes are plumbed as per MATCO, in series. I probably would have paralleled them myself. Bleeding with a pressure pot seems to work very well as you can move a lot of fluid in a short time, hopefully causing migration of most of the air.
    Chuck Gruby
    Petal, Kit Fox III Flying

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by HighWing View Post
    I would suggest using a "T"and then run separate lines to the uppermost fitting on the calipers. Then bleeding from the bottom fitting one at a time should enable all the air to be removed from the lines.
    If MATCO had not specifically stated they were to be in series, I would have done as you said.
    Chuck Gruby
    Petal, Kit Fox III Flying

  5. #35
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Ok, if the recommended routing is series. I would then select the lowest point in the system as the inlet for the bleed line, then route the brake lines from the top of that caliper to the bottom of the second caliper. The line to the master cylinder would then run from the top of the second caliper. Unless you are running gph volumes of fluid through the system, I can't imagine getting all the air out with the bleed insert at the top. Or maybe I am misreading the picture. When bleeding my system, even a small visible bubble of air in one of the Nylaflow lines will result in a spongy feeling. And yes, I have no problem locking a brake and pivoting a 360 on that wheel - either side. A thought, if this has been a constant problm, could it be a mis-adjustment of the tailwheel that it won't unlock and freely pivot.
    Last edited by HighWing; 06-13-2015 at 10:35 AM.
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

  6. #36

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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Thanks Lowell, it's gratifying to know at least some KF's can lock a wheel up and pivot on that wheel.

    When I bleed I use a pressure pot and force fluid up to a catch jar connected to the reservoir fill port. It seems to work very well. The pedals seem to be very firm.

    I went over the installation yesterday with a fine tooth comb. The questionable items I find are:

    1. Only about one half of the brake linings are in contact with the disc.
    2. The calipers seem to deflect or deform under pressure.
    3. The optimum brake pedal to master cylinder lever ratio is 2.5 to 1. My brake pedal is 2.5 inches long whereas the master cylinder lever is 1.875 inches making for a ratio of 1.3 to 1. I'll plan to shorten the master cyl lever to 1".

    I guess the next step is to devise an anchor which can be thrown out when one sees a need to stop.
    Chuck Gruby
    Petal, Kit Fox III Flying

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Well gents, I'm here to tell you that the brake issue, or the lack of has finally come to a successful conclusion. I can actually stop and pivot on one wheel.

    The approach was to install two MATCO brake wheel cylinders for each wheel. Care must be taken that the brake mechanism does not come in contact with the back plate mounting bolts. Metal will have to be removed from the back plate to make this happen.

    Secondly, I measured 450psi at the left wheel and 375 at the right. I could lock the left but not the right. I decided to put in new master cylinders, which are the type that uses an external reservoir. Additionally I added a dual parking brake valve.

    Today's test was great I can run her up to max throttle with no creep, stop on a dime and give you a nickel change. She pivots well and the brakes are nice and smooth with no over-sensitiveness.

    I plan to now go out and enjoy my airplane.

    Cheers,
    Chuck Gruby
    Petal, Kit Fox III Flying

  8. #38
    Senior Member
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    MN
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    Talking Re: Matco brakes

    It looks like you are using one of the real old style calipers and the newer style in your dual setup. I am glad it is working out for you since this is exactly what I was going to attempt. The newer MATCO single calipers work fine up to the 26" AkBushWheel Airstreak tires but when I installed the 29" Bushwheels my braking mirrors what you were experiencing.

    Since the plane originally had those old style (silver-gray) round type, I was going to sell them and buy another set of the new style. Now that I read that you are getting great braking with one of each I will keep them and just get another backing plate! AWESOME!! You just saved me many hundred dollars.

  9. #39

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    Madrid
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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Hi everyone,

    Thanks for the pics ChuckG, I also decided to install the double puck from Matco on my 8" douglas wheels.

    Indeed I found this thread so helpful I wanted to share some more pictures and the problems I found while installing it so it helps anyone who decides to go this way... specially for the non mechanical oriented people like me!

    I had troubles to perfectly center the supporting pad with the axle so I made a cylinder to place it in to the right position. I would strongly recommend to make something like that so is not moving while drilling.

    The mounting pad will only accept one position so the gear legs doesn't obstruct the brake pads. Make sure you drill it in the right position (yeap ... I miss that the first time, that is you can see some extra holes ).

    I removed some material from the gear leg mounting pad and I was able to drill the 3 bolts it in such a way it wouldn't interfere with the movement of the brake pads.

    My problem was other: even by getting the thing as centered as I could, the inner braking pads were touching the brake disc supports. I had to take some material away from both, the braking pads and the disc supports... did anyone had the same problem?

    My understanding is that this aluminium supports where welded in the rim by the constructor and they were slightly too big (indeed one of them was broken).

    As well, does anyone know where to get some brake discs? are these from Matco?

    Hope it helps!
    Cheers,
    Jorge
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  10. #40
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matco brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by cgruby View Post
    1. Only about one half of the brake linings are in contact with the disc.
    2. The calipers seem to deflect or deform under pressure.
    3. The optimum brake pedal to master cylinder lever ratio is 2.5 to 1.
    Re reading this thread I finally noticed the highlighted sections in the above quote.

    In the old days, the bungee gear was notoriously toed in from the factory. In my opinion it is the primary reason for the squirrely reputation of the early Kitfox. Then the factory came out with a note in one of their early Kitfox Times magazines with a technique for aligning the wheels to parallel tracking. I did the deed and found that by putting the padded pipe on the axles and applying a little muscle, I could get straight tracking, but then noticed that all the realignment came at the expense of a bent axle. I found that the brake calipers were no longer perpendicular to the axles, but remained true to the toed in gear legs. I shimmed the calipers with washers strategically placed between the caliper and mounting pad to approximate a 90 degree relationship to the axle. This was done before first flight so I never experienced brake issues with that airplane. Maybe this is the genesis of some of the braking issues with the bungee geared Kitfoxes - poor lining contact with the rotor.
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

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