Heavy Elevator, maybe install a spring ????

[SkyPirate]

OK you got me JP ,..although almost all of them have the flying tail or actually no elevator/ horizontal stab seperation the whole surface moves

i was thinking apples to apples

[jtpitkin06]

OK... How about a Mooney M20, Beech Debonaire, DHC-2 Beaver, Cessna 180, 185, 310R, or 208 Caravan? They all have stabs and elevators and the rudder does not extend below the stab.

Is them apples?

JP

[HighWing]

Interesting subject. Actually I think Roger has thought this through a bit more than we may think at first glance. Previous discussion groups have mentioned numerous times what some call the dumbell affect. This occures when weight is added to the tail to balance heavier than designed engines. Essentially, the weight at the end of a stick has much more angular momentum than the same stick without the weight. Start it swinging and it becomes more difficult to stop = uncontrolled spin. I just remembered - while sitting at a table at the facrory fly-in the topic of spins, spin training and Kitfox spins came up. Those who have done them in the Kitfox say it is relatively difficult to initiate a spin and easy to exit.

The point most detractors have been trying to make is that there are consequences to almost every addition we make to the original design. Granted some can be good - elevator trim, likely the Laker Leading edge, Fairings, these sorts of things. Others, not so good. The way I see it, heavy engine needs weight in the tail. Weight in the tail needs something additional to mitigate the undesirable spin characteristics. What we will most certainly get is a heavy airplane. In my opinion close to the empty weight of some of the lightest 7s or more. Is that good? In my opinion, for a Model IV - No!

Roger, for the sake of those who will most certainly come later, please post some actual performance figures. The ealrier thread titled something like VW power Performance Data Available !!!!!L Is a bit disappointing because it is a report of only one of many many VW powered airplanes - not very scientific. We need at least one more - For the next guy to evaluate engine options he will need things like things like Empty weight, Weight and ballance data, Fuel consumption, Stall speed, cruise at various power settings - both AIS and GPS (compensated). Take off distance, measured climb - saying it climbs better than my kid's Radio Flyer doesn't quite cut it.
Lowell
Model IV-1200 900 hrs.
Model IV-1200 Nearing Completion

[SkyPirate]

dems apples ..bows to the airplane god chanting I'm not worthy ,..I'm not worthy but they still aint LSA's lol

[SkyPirate]

JP ,..my problem was I wasnt thinking to clear ,.after being up for going on 24 hours when I posted that ,.I wasnt too clear in my presentation ,..thinking? ,..but not discribing to the letter what I was thinking ,.Vicodyn does that to you but I'll be off that crap soon I hope seems my "elevator" had too much weight in it and the doc's removed some of it between L2 thru L5,..I had the same problem though ,..I'd go into a spin and the ground would fall up and hit me ,..luckily it was only 6 foot away lol

[SkyPirate]

OK as for all the mods,..I'l be one of the first in the "guilty " line for trying new concepts,.. I have a yard full of evidence to prove that,..from motors that dont use any source of burnable fuel ,. to boats with built in trailers.
But in each step of any "improvement" I brought what ever it was I was working on to a "Known" stage first ,..then went from there in little steps , that is my main concern,..especially in an aircraft, add a life into the picture ,..relying on those "new concepts" ,..as someone had put it in an earlier post ,..your now a "test pilot" I can relate to that as well,..building my own design aircraft,..but I'm still bringing that plane to a known standard first ,..as I mentioned in a earlier post ,..you need a ground "Zero" which equals to a "known" status in the concept.
When I built my race car ,..even though I scratch built,I didnt buy a chassis to start with..I knew that my end result in the build had to be as close to 51% front weight to 49% rear weight and 51% left weight to 49% right weight ,..that was my starting ground before tweaking(circle track car) sure ,.if I didnt stick to the formula ,..it would still go around the track,..but chances of me hitting the wall at 150 mph greatly increased if I didnt start at that ground "Zero"
I'm not dissin you Roger for thinking,..I'm just saying slow down the process,..I do the same thing all the time ,.I'll have 100 plus avenues to take on paper concerning a a hundred mods,..but I stick to one mod at a time when it comes to applying them.

Chase

I'll add this too Roger from experience ,.if your plan( or even if it's not and you have to anyways) in the future is to sell your plane,..or anything that was a proven design that has been modified ,..it greatly narrows the list of people that would buy it,..

[rogerh12]

This is an issue on T-tail aircraft. On a kitfox there is no way that airflow across the horizontal tail would be obstructed by the main wing during a stall. In fact, the kitfox tail is lower than the wing in level flight and is more so in a stalled condition.

Sorry guys, quite right, I got it bass-acward. Low wings can block the tail in a deep stall, not high wings.

[rogerh12]

I'm just saying slow down the process,..I do the same thing all the time ,.I'll have 100 plus avenues to take on paper concerning a a hundred mods,..but I stick to one mod at a time when it comes to applying them.

Hey chase, when it comes to working on planes, I really only work one of three ways:

Slow
Slower
Even Slower !!!!!

I never seem to get any work done fast, I just make sure it's done right (until I discover I did it wrong). I think all my mods are reversible to one extent or another, but things have to be modified when you stray from the Rotax/Taildragger mold and incorporating design features from other successful planes is one way to do it (both kitfox and others).

I know there are a lot of other guys out there wanting to build a kitfox with a low cost VW, or some other engine, I know because they keep emailing me or call me to learn more about and I am doing and how. I am trying to find other flying Kitfox –VW combo for raw data, but don’t have a lot of time to do it outside of this limited forum, but I will keep looking. I do know, the kitfox-4-1200 with it’s generous wing area is a better platform for a VW engine, better than my zenith 601 with it’s short wings (but even so, it still had acceptable climb performance on all but the hotest Kansas days).

Roger

[SkyPirate]

Roger,..we are building a 601 at TBN ,we got the parts for the AD on the carry thru last fall..although we haven't worked on it in quite some time ,.we are considering the 0-200,..but ,.if I get my plane I'm building here at home done first ,.we might use that same power plant on it ,..a 2008 Ford Focus motor 2.0 rated 140 hp,.. so I understand your quest .

I'm just saying one mod at a time ,..get it flying first with the
VW ,.. rack up some time on it,..then do a mod,..fly it some more ,.I'm sure you'll know right off if the mod was for the good or bad,..but you will know it was the last mod applied ,..there wont be any guessing ,..was it the added vertical surface or ?? or changing the CG? or ??
if i am repeating myself,..sorry ..just cant stress it enough

Chase