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Thread: Aoa

  1. #41
    Senior Member rv9ralph's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    To add to this discussion. There is an article in the October edition of Sport Aviation on page 34. It is Charlie Precourt's column titled "Demonstrating Ingenuity". The core of the article discusses the pros/cons of a squared vs. rounded traffic pattern. The interesting part is a reader providing data from his aircraft while flying both patterns. The data on AOA and Bank Angle is very interesting, it shows that the AOA increases more that you may think when making square turns from downwind to base and then to final.
    It is a good read and shows that AOA display shows your margin of safety, regardless of other factors you may feel are giving you good information (i.e. airspeed, but feel, deck angle)

    Ralph

  2. #42
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    Yeah, I've always wondered why if everyone is so concerned about stall/spin accidents, and we know the majority happen in the landing phase, then why doesn't the FAA change (or at least suggest) a rounded corner approach to landing?

    Whenever I fly a "Hot" airplane I do round corners rather than square, just to give myself a bit more safety margin. It only makes sense, much like Precourt proves.

    I also would like to see takeoff procedures changed to help engine failure on takeoff concerns. For that a slight bank angle to the right immediately after takeoff (or left as needed to alleviate flying into downwind traffic) so if the engine were to quit you could bank slightly left and intersect the runway rather than going straight ahead (as taught currently) which typically puts you into neighborhoods, highways, water, etc. Landing at the airport is always preferable but under the current methods taught unlikely.

    Just my two cents worth...

    Sorry about the thread drift.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Flybyjim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    At my own airfield, a grass field 1200 feet long I always make a right turn once air born climbing out at 60mph with one notch of flaps, this rounded turn is to about 30-45 deg to the runway. If I have an engine issue I have a much better option than landing straight ahead, I practice this turn back to the runway often by cutting the throttle, I know it is not the same as if the engine stops but I have a plan each time I take off. I apply this same turn on departure where ever possible at other airports. I am flying a Rans S7 while building my Kitfox SS7. I have used rounded corners, turns for a long time, even during flight reviews with discussions with the instructors. I have never had one disagree with the reasoning of this practice of rounded turns.
    I have never flown using as AOA, I would like to after all this discussion. I have been looking online at the different options, stand-alone AOA's are pricey like most things aviation.

  4. #44
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    FlyByJim, great comments. Glad to see others doing much of what I do.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Aoa

    I have built several iterations of AOA systems, using microcontrollers and my
    first system was based on the good old bacon saver. Mostly since I like
    hobbies, I like building and programming them.

    I've spent a lot of time flying around using them, and done a lot of airwork
    with it.

    I find no real value for them in N85AE. It is a Series 5 with an IO-240B,
    my stall speed is at about 35 mph, and at an indicated AOA about 25-30
    degrees

    If you fly AOA, and believe in it as a panacea for stalling, you will learn a
    hard lesson in a Kitfox.

    Fly an illusionally safe AOA on final, can lead to a quite slow speed ... Let's
    say 1.3 x 35 mph stall = 45 mph ... This is ONLY like 15 degrees AOA, which
    seems very safe, until you hit a summer time burble, and with a 10 mph
    wind shift. Then you will see the little AOA indicator go from safe to near
    vertical in the blink of an eye.

    Not that AOA is bad, but honestly I have never found anything in flying my
    airplane where the AOA told me something I didn't already know, and
    I have found situations where flying AOA can lead to inadvertent danger.

    On a summer day, or any day when there's any chop I'm watching the
    runway, carrying a safe buffer of airspeed, and I have my hand on the
    throttle and I see the AOA bouncing up and down as I punch through
    thermals and turbulence off of trees, etc.

    So I do see AOA as an extra thing to look at, and it gives me "some"
    information, but definitely not something that is in my opinion high value
    in my airplane. I personally use airspeed, control feel, and seat of pants
    a LOT more for telling me what's going on.

    I also feel that if somebody stalled, and spun a Kitfox, that an AOA system,
    airspeed indicator, or BRS would not have saved them either.

    Ok, flame away now

    Jeff

  6. #46
    Guy Buchanan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    When I fly low wing aircraft, I tend to do a round pattern. When I fly high wing, I square the corners so I can see what's going on in and around the runway.
    Guy Buchanan
    San Diego, CA
    Deceased K-IV 1200 / 912uls / 70" Warp 3cs

    gebuchanan@cox.net

  7. #47
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aoa

    I agree with what you are saying, basically that having AOA indication does by no means allow you to disobey all the normal common sense rules we all were taught in our flight training, such as extra speed in windy, shifty, turbulent conditions. I really do like the way that it instantly warns me by screaming in my ear when, as you say, a completely unexpected "burble" occurs on an otherwise calm approach. I do believe that it warns me a little quicker than my own senses would react which allows me to take corrective action somewhat sooner. Certainly as you gain many hours of familiarity with your plane, your own senses will tell you most of what you need to know, EXCEPT in those rare circumstances of unusual or more extreme attitudes which most of us never encounter enough to become familiar with; in these cases the old needle, ball & airspeed and seat of the pants may not be good enough. Also, an AOA indicator you have to LOOK at is nearly worthless unless you have a Head-Up display.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

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