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Thread: Another tailwheel discussion

  1. #1
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Another tailwheel discussion

    Welcome to the forum. This is a great resource, especially as you get further into your Kitfox ownership.

    I think learning how to fly in a Kitfox, especially an early one, will make you a better pilot as they are a control sensitive and somewhat unstable compared to your average Piper or Cesna. After putting more than 2,000 hours on Kitfoxes and Avids, and flying a bunch of other general aviation aircraft over the years, I personally find the Kitfox a bit harder to fly than many other taildraggers, but it is not the raging monster some claim. However, some Kitfoxes and Avids have had really bad luck when using the Maule tailwheel (as in wrecked) which will make it nearly impossible for ANY pilot to fly, UNLESS it is set up correctly. (I know this from first hand experience - a master flight instructor that specializes in tailwheel put an Avid on its back because of a Maule tailwheel. And this guy knows how to handle tailwheel airplanes)

    So if you have a Maule tailwheel on it we should talk before you get into your training in it. That could be the reason for 6 previous owners?

    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by KFfan View Post
    Hello all. I completed ground school this spring and want to get my SP ticket. I searched ALL summer for an affordable Kitfox to use as a trainer. The closest facility to me with a LSA for training is about 65 miles distant. I don't know when I decided I HAD to have a Kitfox but I did. I finally found a decent one about two weeks ago. It is currently in the warehouse where I work. I want to get to know this Beauty intimately before I get a waiver to use it for my SP training. I've been lurking on this and the Avid forum for some time. I have certainly gleaned a great deal of knowledge from those forums. Thank you all for an education and your thoughts. Lou

  2. #2
    KFfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    Thanks av8rps!

    I thinks part of the attraction to the KFII is the relative "instability" of it and the challenge of a tailwheel. I have read many posts, here and elsewhere, that mention if one can attain the tailwheel endorsement one can handle most any other.

    Please don't think that I am overly confident. I just have a good handle on some of the things to expect and my own abilities when learning new skills in other aspects of my life.

    Included with the plane is a new Matco wheel with a Carlisle 4ply 9X3.5-4 tire.
    Oops! I'll have to watch where I land. It states "NOT FOR HIGHWAY SERVICE"! Any thoughts on this wheel? I have not yet mounted it.

    I have ordered the history from the FAA. I should have it tomorrow. Hopefully it will be clean. I did search accident/incident files and was not able to find this ship there.
    Last edited by KFfan; 10-23-2014 at 04:19 AM.
    Lou
    KitFox II
    582

  3. #3

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    Default Re: New member Intro

    Quote Originally Posted by av8rps View Post
    Welcome to the forum. This is a great resource, especially as you get further into your Kitfox ownership.

    I think learning how to fly in a Kitfox, especially an early one, will make you a better pilot as they are a control sensitive and somewhat unstable compared to your average Piper or Cesna. After putting more than 2,000 hours on Kitfoxes and Avids, and flying a bunch of other general aviation aircraft over the years, I personally find the Kitfox a bit harder to fly than many other taildraggers, but it is not the raging monster some claim. However, some Kitfoxes and Avids have had really bad luck when using the Maule tailwheel (as in wrecked) which will make it nearly impossible for ANY pilot to fly, UNLESS it is set up correctly. (I know this from first hand experience - a master flight instructor that specializes in tailwheel put an Avid on its back because of a Maule tailwheel. And this guy knows how to handle tailwheel airplanes)

    So if you have a Maule tailwheel on it we should talk before you get into your training in it. That could be the reason for 6 previous owners?

    Paul
    Hi Paul

    I caught your comment about Maul tail wheels. How about elaborating a little as to what are some of the pit falls regarding this tail wheel and a Kit Fox. I've got one on my Type III, but haven't found any reason why I would remove it. I've als flown several other airplanes with that tail wheel and other that a lot of slack in them, they work as good as a small Scott.

    You really got my curious up.
    Chuck Gruby
    Petal, Kit Fox III Flying

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    The main issue with Maul wheels is their propensity to prematurely unlock, going full swivel, if not set up perfectly.

    In an early Kitfox (1-4), if the tail unlocks when you aren't expecting it, the plane will come around (ground loop). That is a guarantee. Especially with an inexperienced pilot. These planes are short coupled and quick on the controls.

    It is highly recommended that until you gain a good level of experience, you remove the unlocking cam plate off the wheel keeping it locked to the steering chains.

    I kept the cam off until I had 100 hours in my plane. By then I felt I had enough experience to handle it. Last summer I still looped my plane (luckily at a slow speed with no damage!) when the wheel unlocked unexpectedly.
    Av8r3400
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  5. #5
    Senior Member kmach's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    I have a Matco 8" dual arm tailwheel , the lightweight one.

    It has worked flawlessly for over 300 hrs.

    It is much better than the solid 6" that was originally on it!
    Kevin,

    Kitfox Outback
    912 ULS
    Airmaster AP332CTFH-WWR70W
    Summit Aircraft Wheel Skis
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    Is the tailwheel on the S7 an issue?

  7. #7

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    Default Re: New member Intro

    Quote Originally Posted by Av8r3400 View Post
    The main issue with Maul wheels is their propensity to prematurely unlock, going full swivel, if not set up perfectly.

    In an early Kitfox (1-4), if the tail unlocks when you aren't expecting it, the plane will come around (ground loop). That is a guarantee. Especially with an inexperienced pilot. These planes are short coupled and quick on the controls.

    It is highly recommended that until you gain a good level of experience, you remove the unlocking cam plate off the wheel keeping it locked to the steering chains.

    I kept the cam off until I had 100 hours in my plane. By then I felt I had enough experience to handle it. Last summer I still looped my plane (luckily at a slow speed with no damage!) when the wheel unlocked unexpectedly.
    I see your point. I've been slowly becoming acquainted with my Type III with a Maul TW. I have to admit, I've made some really spectacular landings, some bordering on almost an what some might consider an aerobatic maneuver. Allowing the airplane to yaw unchecked, will most certainly result in a GL, however, when everything else fails, there's always brakes. I have never considered removing the cam, I guess I like the full swivel capability too much.

    Part of TW training is learning to deal with the monster. When I was a 16 year old kid, flying a Cub, I made a lot of crazy landings, but all my 60 years of flying, I've never ground looped one yet. I can't even phantom an experienced instructor putting an airplane over on it's back due to a tail wheel becoming unlocked.

    Cheers,
    Chuck Gruby
    Petal, Kit Fox III Flying

  8. #8
    Senior Member av8rps's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    What Larry is saying here describes the problem well. The only thing I disagree with is that with experience you can learn to overcome the problem. You can't. You cannot train enough to be able to handle this problem.

    I have flown airplanes with that tailwheel when it unlocked in flight (unknown to me at the time). And I will tell you even with a COUPLE THOUSAND HOURS in this type of an airplane, and mentally being on top of my game because it was a test flight, I was very lucky to get the plane back on the ground in one piece. Remove the swivel option by taking that cam out of the tailwheel as Larry described so well, and those same airplanes became extremely easy (by comparison) to fly.

    So what's so wrong with Maule tailwheels? I'm not really sure, and maybe nothing if set up correctly (although I do have to admit that Maule aircraft are known quite well by insurance companies for ground loops....hmmm?)

    Anyhow, on the Kitfox it is relatively easy to see if they are set up properly. Just put a sawhorse under the tail of the airplane until it is level and the tailwheel is hanging with no weight on it. Then while having one person by the tail, have another person go in the cabin and push the rudder pedals back and forth full deflection, while the person at the tail checks to see if the tailwheel unlocks (or will swivel freely). The tailwheel should NEVER unlock without weight on it...

    It should only unlock when there is weight on it and inertia is applied one way or another to make it unlock. In other words, only on the ground. (aside from wanting it to swivel to push backwards into a hangar, or to turn 180 degrees really sharp into a parking space, why else would you want a tailwheel to fully swivel?)

    Typically when I've found them to unlock without weight on them they unlock left more than than they do right. I'm not sure why that is, but it's not good either way when you are coming in for a landing and unknown to the pilot the tailwheel is now deflected 90 degrees from the direction the airplane is going. You can bet as soon as that tail hits the ground that you are going to go hard left (or right) just as if you had the rudder pedal to the floor and a brake locked. And because the Kitfox is a relatively short airplane, you will find yourself going off the runway at a 90 degree angle to the direction you were traveling just a second ago. If you're really lucky and very proficient, you might be able to fly away across the width of the runway (with lots of power). But much more likely, you will find yourself in one hell of a ground loop, typically burying the outboard wing into the ground while twisting and tearing at the rest of the airplane, which many times results in everything, the wings, the struts, the tail, and the fuselage being bent and twisted from the violent forces associated with such a quick direction change.

    I'll fly a Maule tailwheel, but only with the swivel feature disabled. And if it isn't disabled then I will do a thorough check to see if it can be unlocked without weight on it.

    Unfortunately because many Kitfox owners have never had a problem with their Maule tailwheel (they're blessed in my opinion), they can't understand how so many guys can groundloop their airplanes? And for those that have, they probably are questioning their own abilities as a tailwheel pilot, when it is probably more likely there was something wrong with their airplane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Av8r3400 View Post
    The main issue with Maul wheels is their propensity to prematurely unlock, going full swivel, if not set up perfectly.

    In an early Kitfox (1-4), if the tail unlocks when you aren't expecting it, the plane will come around (ground loop). That is a guarantee. Especially with an inexperienced pilot. These planes are short coupled and quick on the controls.

    It is highly recommended that until you gain a good level of experience, you remove the unlocking cam plate off the wheel keeping it locked to the steering chains.

    I kept the cam off until I had 100 hours in my plane. By then I felt I had enough experience to handle it. Last summer I still looped my plane (luckily at a slow speed with no damage!) when the wheel unlocked unexpectedly.
    Last edited by av8rps; 10-23-2014 at 04:16 PM.

  9. #9
    KFfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: New member Intro

    I'm glad the subject surfaced.

    "av8rps"
    Thanks for a detailed, complete and graphical explanation. Yet another example of the insightful information freely given on this Forum!

    Any known shortcomings for the Matco gear, anyone?
    Lou
    KitFox II
    582

  10. #10

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    Default Re: New member Intro

    I too have the mauled set up on my model II. The previous owner put 600 hers on it with no issue, but I have a matco on my RANS and liked it so I bought another one (thanks Jay S!) But haven't installed it yet. Sounds like I probably need to. I'm also interested in any issues with the Matco setup? I'm not aware of any so far.

    Jay P
    N627C
    KF II/ 582

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