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Thread: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

  1. #1
    gregsgt's Avatar
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    Default Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    Hello, I've got some questions about the best approach to training in and owning a kitfox.

    I'm starting to get pretty serious about looking for and buying a plane. I've got some time in a P210 when I was younger and started training in a 172. I've decided to train for a light sport certificate at this point in my life because right now I am only looking to fly for fun and light sport seems to be the most economical way to go for me. Unfortunately none of the flight schools around here have a light sport aircraft to train in so the only way I can get light sport certified is to get my own aircraft.

    My end goal is to have a plane on amphibious floats and I've pretty much decided that what would work best for me is at least a series 5 due to having a little bit of cushion with the higher gross. From looking around at what is out there it seems like I can expect to spend upwards of $30k for one without floats. I'll also need one with a transponder and radio since I will be flying out of and through controlled airspace.

    My concern is that being new pilot I'll essentially be uninsurable until I get some hours logged and I don't like the idea of self insuring a plane with a cost like that. Does anyone have some suggestions for insurance for a new pilot?

    Would I be better off buying a more basic inexpensive plane like a series 2-4 with a 582 in it to start with and then transition to a series 5? I've seen some nicely equipped planes like that in the $10-$20k range.

    I'm lucky enough to live close to Tom Parkhurst and he was nice enough to give me a demo flight in his kitfox iv lite squared so at least I've got someone within driving distance of me with experience in these that can help with training.

  2. #2
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    I was able to get insurance thru EAA (Falcon) for my brand new Kitfox Super Sport E/AB which covered the maiden flight and me as a brand new Sport Pilot with only about 120 hours. I trained with Stick & Rudder in Boise so nearly all those hours were in a Kitfox SS taildragger. I understand that after about 200 hours taildragger time insurance cost goes down significantly.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

  3. #3
    N981MS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    Light Sport aircraft MUST have been originally certified at no more than 1320 pounds gross weight on wheels. There is some allowance for floats. I suspect (but am not certain) most Series 5s are more than that. You cannot reduce it to 1320 later and comply with Light Sport rules.

    WARNING: if you are dead set on Light Sport, do not buy one until you see the original registration gross weight. I would not take somebody's "yeah, its a light sport".

    Unfortunately, I think you will have a hard time finding insurance for you as a student. I think it can be done though.

    If you don't have any medical reasons necessitating Light Sport I would recommend getting your private license. Then you can rent the local spam cans to learn. No sense in beating up your Kitfox. Insurance companies like private pilots better and you would have fewer limitations.

    YMMV
    Maxwell Duke

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    Make sure it is registered as a ESLA or that the registration weight is under 1320 lbs. I had several owners trying to sell me their Kitfoxes as LSAs when in fact the were registered over the 1320 weight maximum. Ask to see the weight and balance. If it shows over 1320 lbs, 1321 to 1550lbs, it can not be flown as an LSA. There are some people out there that are just trying to sell their plane, and are not concerned with the legality.

    Quote Originally Posted by N981MS View Post
    Light Sport aircraft MUST have been originally certified at no more than 1320 pounds gross weight on wheels...
    Paul Zimmermann
    LSRM-A
    Garland, Texas

  5. #5
    wheelerg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    For what its worth, apples vs oranges....
    In Canada I got insurance thru COPA via MAGNES ins company and I had 40 hours on a 172, I bought the plane and put liability on it and did my Ultralight licence with my own plane insured.
    I realize its Canada but I would think you should be able to get ins and fly as low time trainee.

    Good luck
    Gary
    Kitfox 4 1200
    Eastern Ontario
    Canada

  6. #6
    gregsgt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    Well I've got about 35 hours logged in a 172. Any time before that wasn't really for training so it wasn't logged but I basically grew up in the copilot seat of a P210.

    I don't really have any medical reasons to necessitate light sport but I am on a medication for migraine headaches that will require a special issuance. Part of which will require a battery of expensive and time consuming tests that I am not sure I want to invest in at this point although my AME doesn't think it will be an issue. The medication has zero impact on me. I tried to go off it for obtaining a private certificate but the original issues I started taking it for flared up again. I am better off on it than without it.

    Being that a Kitfox is the aircraft I would really like to fly it just made sense to me financially to go for light sport at this point and possibly use it as a stepping stone towards private in the future.

    I understand the fact that if an aircraft is registered over 1320 that it can't be re-registered under the limit to comply with light sport rules.

    The other factor is that really the only aircraft available around me is a 172 and it seems like if I even look at the thing it costs me $150 or so. Since I'm not looking to fly for travel or anything at this point the private certificate just doesn't make as much sense as light sport. The problem with that is that there are no light sport aircraft available in my area which would necessitate me buying one to train in. The problem with that is that I think insurance would be hard to obtain and I really don't want to self insure a $30k+ aircraft.

    I'm sort-of leaning towards finding a relatively inexpensive Model 2-4 to train in, (hopefully not beat it up too bad), and sell it towards a Model 5+ once I am more insurable.

    There are a couple really nice aircraft fairly close that are better oriented towards my end-goal but I'm just not comfortable at this point pulling the trigger to buy one until I'm comfortable with the insurance end of it. I'll have to start making some phone calls to see what I am up against.

    I was just wondering if someone out there was in a similar situation and how they handled it.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    Best recommendation is to go to Idaho, and get some hours at Stick & Rudder in a Kitfox. Almost every insurance company wants 10 hours in type.
    Paul Zimmermann
    LSRM-A
    Garland, Texas

  8. #8
    gregsgt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Z View Post
    Best recommendation is to go to Idaho, and get some hours at Stick & Rudder...
    That's good advice. Interestingly enough Tom can do training here in his Model 4 lite squared. Would you recommend getting some hours in on one of these first before thinking about buying one?

    I flew Tom's plane with him and thoroughly enjoyed it. It is much more fun to fly than the 172.

  9. #9
    Senior Member SkyPirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    If you can pass a physical, get the student certificate, train for 20 hrs in a 150, take a check ride in an LSA, if you want a sport pilot student certificate, any DPE or FSDO can issue one at no charge.
    If you have doubts about the physical, do the sport or go see a DR that is not an FAA cert physician and get a physical first, and study the NO FLY list of medical reasons why you could not obtain a PPL or pass a physical.

    My model 5 is registered 1320 gross LSA
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  10. #10
    gregsgt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about training and insurance for new pilot

    I'm not concerned about passing the 3rd class medical. I just don't see the benefit if what I want to fly is an LSA anyway.

    No 150s around here to train in but I have 35 hours in a 172 already. I just would have to switch training from private to sport.

    There is just no LSA available around here to rent for a check ride.

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