Newbie here with observations and questions

[srileo]

Hello all
I am a 36yrd old paramotor pilot with dreams of one day building and flying my own little plane. For now, am researching and soaking in as much as i can to narrow down the daydreaming possibilities.

My personal background:

• Originally from India, very comfortable in the US with an american wife

• No Sport pilot license yet, but definitely getting started in a year or s0

• Budget of upto $35k on my own and more if i can convince a friend to join me in the build+ownership process
• Intent to build/own is about 2-3 years from now

• Wife does not fly, but could be coaxed into a cockpit with demonstration of expertise. 2 seater is a must. side-by-side is necessary.
• I live in San Francisco (anyone else around here?), and therefore no place to work on a plane, let alone park one ;-). more on that later.

• No mechanical knowledge amounting to much. I can change oil and filters on my motorcycles, but have recently started to build stuff around and am really enjoying the process. + wife is very handy

Putting aside the minor technicalities listed above , I was heavily interested in the Sonex for a while- and was invited up to a demo flight by a kindly owner. It was terrific and i loved it all the qualities its designers espouse - honesty with materials, build times, well engineered with simplicity and reliability the prime drivers, and a very sensible price point.

However, after a few days of research, i am refining my mission:

• 1. Needs to be tolerably fast for cross-country. I hope to fly from the bay area and get to say nevada in a few hours. 120mph cruise would be great, 100 is acceptable, 90mph and below is not. Above 120 is also fine, but not at the expense of high stall speeds. As a motorcyclist, i have ridden all the way to panama and back over a leisurely few months and i hope to make a similar pilgrimages in the plane to Alaska and the bahamas.

• 2. Back-country operations are necessary. by back country i mean fly to grass strips, abandoned airfields in NV, ID, OR to camp, hike and fly back. So, some kind of ruggedness and STOL characteristics is critical. I wont be flying "bush" right away, and will take my time getting to that goal slowly. Decent STOL is sufficient, i dont need to wheelie myself into the air like i see the zeniths do.

• 3. Carrying capacity: my wife is 6' and about 160, and i am 6' as well and 165. Being able to haul a small camping setup and maybe even a folding bicycle would be terrific. Flying in to Burning man would be a treat :-)

• 4. Folding wings are critical. The bayarea is expensive to begin with and i have other sports that i dont want to give up to pay for avoidables like hanger fees. I would share hangar space in an existing setup. Trailerability is also necessary for a 'just in case' scenario.

• 5. Engine: I would highly prefer my motor to NOT be a Rotax. I just dont like their pricing and what that does to our sport. I simply cannot accept that a modern motor can cost upward of $20k and still not have FI or liquid cooling. I club the Jabirus into the same class as the Rotaxes. Continentals do not interest me that much.
  I highly love the Aerovee/Sonex price point of $7k and assemble-it-yourself simplicity. I do realize that because of the RPM issues, an aerovee cannot be fit into a kitfox, else i'd be happy with the 80hp frugality it offered.
  But i hope you understand the philosophy. That is the big reason why the Viking Honda conversion has me eagerly awaiting news. It seems everything i want a motor to be - easily maintained, modern and sensibly priced. I am glad that by the time i roll up my sleeves for a purchase, there will be enough numbers and reviews around the Viking motor. The HKS motor, however, interests me a lot in a good way, however i dont seem to hear much about them on here.

• 6. Build effort: I am admittedly slightly unsure if building a plane is the right thing for me to do - given my career and the prospect of being a new father by then. If i cannot find a build partner by then, i'll probably just buy used. In my 40th year, I will want to build pretty badly, but the hurdles of workspace and tools are not easy to overcome in a city like SF. However, i hope for the best. My wife is quite handy with tools, and i can count on her to help me often.

I realize that in all of the above, i have pretty much described a Kitfox/Highlander. However there remains the question of Build method. This is something i simply have not been able to understand about the kitfox at all. Niether on the kitfox website nor elsewhere do i see any choice of QuickBuild centers.
While there are 5000 kitfoxes flying, i don't know if they were all built by the owner in his/her own garage or if alternate arrangements exist. What i mean is, the Zenith series seems to have as huge a following as the kitfoxes, however they seem to have a really really solid network of assembly/build centers where a prospective owner can order a full quickbuild kit and engine and then spend an intense amount of time (3-4 weeks) putting his plane together under the supervision of experts. See FlightCrafters or Quality Sport Plane build centers. I really think that would be the only way i could build a plane. The combination of availability of ALL tools, workspaces, experts, and fellow builders can make a project speed up by a factor or 2 or 3 imho, cutting out a lot of frustration and blank hours and runs to the hardware store. I can take a vacation for that duration of time or more and would love to just have an almost ready to fly airplane at the end of it. The $ cost of such a program, i would write off as a wonderful, intense education.
Does the kitfox have such build options?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and for your advise. I'll be checking back in here eagerly.

Shridhar

[TahoeTim]

Get you sport pilot license first. The stats are low on how many people who start their pilot license actually finish it. Kit building stats are even lower (1 out of 10 original owners finish).

I busted out my license in 23 hours over two months and had to study hard to be ready for the ground test in that time. I loved it and added BCD airspace and tail wheel endorsements. You will need BCD airspace where you live.

You should consider buying a used plane. Being an experience race car builder and having a garage full of cool tools didn't make it any easier for me. A plane is a different animal and takes dedication to see it through.

I probably won't build a second one.

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a used plane or finance a new or used plane and go flying.

P.S.
I am from the Bay Area originally so I understand the building space constraints. I got my Sport Pilot license in a Zenith 601. I also tacked on my tail wheel endorsement in a Citabria in Sonoma. It gets real expensive real quick to rent a plane. I plan to get my PP using my 601 when I finish it in a month or so to save instruction costs.

Edit - Warning! Once you have your pilot license you will want to fly all the time. The urge to fly gets expensive when you are renting. I once told my instructor that I would rent the school plane for 100 hours during my build. He laughed and then reminded me how much $$$ that would add up to at $115 an hour. You could easily make payments on a plane if you only fly 4 or 5 hours a month...

Welcome to the club

[Geowitz]

Shridhar,

I think I mostly agree with Tim.

You done some great research and you've also done a pretty good analysis of yourself. A lot of people don't put that much thought into it and that's why most people don't finish their kits. For your situation it sounds like your feelings are leaning towards buying an already built plane. I don't believe there are any Kitfox quick build programs, but I think I recall a program with the highlander. Both the Kitfox and Highlander will do great in the back country, but the Kitfox tends to be faster on cruise.

Perhaps you could find a plane that needs some freshening up and you could do a little resto work while you fly it to get some building time in? Overall, though you sound like you know what you need to do.

[Av8r_Sed]

There is builder's assistance available at Sportplane LLC. They are affiliated with Kitfox Aircraft.

http://www.sportplanellc.com/Builder%20Assistance.htm

If you are going in with partner or partners You mught also want to consider the S-LSA version that comes ready to fly.

I do agree with the other folks. Get your license first. Introduce your significant other and see if you'll be getting any support on the home front. Then make you decisions on ownership / building.

-- Paul S

[MotReklaw]

Shridhar,

I've built two other experimentals from kits. The homebuilt community for Zenith, and the others is great. But, the KF is hands down a superior product in its kit form in my opinion. I like the KF better.

If you take in a partner you could double your budget to around $70K. Maybe taking in a 3rd partner would put you in the $100K bracket.
You can get a SLSA with most of the options. And you would just have to drive to the factory and fly it home. Maybe even the two partners could swing a deal to get it. The base price is ca. $88K. After building two, I enjoy the building, but it is time consuming. I have two partners, but neither are able to work on the project. One is out of the country and the other is busy in his job and his other interests. I basically work alone and we split the bills 3-ways. I sometimes have to wait a week or two for the available partner to come help me with some of the building routines where two eyes and hands are better than one. I'm a little too cautious sometimes as I will agonize for several days about drilling a hole in a critical location (like the wing spars) until he can come down and offer his eyes.

Even though one of my partners has been with me for 3, plus this kit, airplanes, and we are friends, we still have a written agreement covering usage and liability.

Below is a link to the SLSA page at KF. I thought I remember seeing a build option where you go to the factory and work for two weeks, they finish the plane and you go back and pick it up and it qualifies as a homebuilt. Maybe the new rules prevent that, I'm not sure.

I'm sure you could buy a used KF SS for around 70k too, so that is an option. I wouldn't look for a bargain though, I would look for quality.

Here's the link: http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/Kitfox-SLSA.htm

[srileo]

TahoeTim,
thanks for the succint and informative reply. You are absolutely right, i should not make any major decision before i start and complete the LSA. Flying is just too expensive to begin with before any impulse purchases are figured in.

Going back to your sport pilot instruction, what do you think about me getting instruction in exactly the aircraft that i hope to own or build? For example, if i were to choose a KF, would it be less expensive in the long run if i found an instructor who is willing to train me to sport pilot in the KF? That way, do i get the tailwheel endorsement right out the door? and know the exact flight characteristics without getting checked out in a bunch of planes? I was thinking of something like this: http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/Flight%20Training.htm

I guess the flying experience is a bit like owning vs renting a house. Build up hours in as many planes as you like to rent, or choose one and make your payments towards it so you own it outright...

Thanks for the insights. Please keep them coming.
Shridhar

Get you sport pilot license first.

[srileo]

Aha! that sounds like what i need to know. I did come across the site before, but it seemed heavily outdated. I did see the McBean duo's flight reports of exotic locales. Sounds promising.

Am afraid the S-LSA option is out for me. Too expensive and i dont yet have a partner to go in with. But agreed with you that a lot depends on what the wifey allows :-)

There is builder's assistance available at Sportplane LLC. They are affiliated with Kitfox Aircraft.

http://www.sportplanellc.com/Builder%20Assistance.htm

If you are going in with partner or partners You mught also want to consider the S-LSA version that comes ready to fly.

I do agree with the other folks. Get your license first. Introduce your significant other and see if you'll be getting any support on the home front. Then make you decisions on ownership / building.

-- Paul S

[srileo]

MotReklaw,
i need to find someone like you :-)
I'd love to go in to this project with a friend (yet to be found), and hopefully he is more experienced and can teach me the ropes and i get to do some critical parts of the build process. Which means i better start canvassing :-)

I cannot buy a plane new - with or without a partner. It just seems wrong for 2 rank newbies to buy a plane that they barely know how to fly. Kind of like buying/financing a new car right after passing driver's ed ... Building a new plane is a different story though, it will slow me down enough to really know the craft before i fly... make sense?

Buying used is definitely a much stronger consideration, however, if the right facilities were closer to me, and with a dedicated/continuous amount of time, i think i could accomplish both the build process.

Seriously though, what do you think of a program like this:
http://flightcrafters.com/flightcraftersllc.html
or, a couple of hours from me in northern california is this place: http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/bu...ssistance.html
The latter seems like it could help with non-zenith kits?
There is also another facility a couple of hours south that does not mention KF in particular, but seems like they could help : I'll find out next weekend when i take the "what's involved in kitbuilding" course from them :-)

In all, i tend to value a structured program more than 'build-when-u-can'. I think :-)


Thanks all for your comments. Keep them coming.

[srileo]

Mmmmmm that is a tempting plane and the price is really good. 275TTE is not bad at all. While i am not in the market right at the moment, the wife blessed the idea in general. She thinks it needs to lose the pants though - very Elvis she says

Thanks for sharing that. The price is a very positive encouragement to buy used - and being a KF, something like this should convert into a more 'bushy' plane without too much effort?

[TahoeTim]

Actually, I decided that I wanted to build a 601 and then found a school. I got ALL my training in a 601. My wife wouldn't let me buy a kit until I got my license. Now that i am close to flying my plane, I've started looking at the kitfox for a second plane. I got my Tailwheel endorsement to see if I would like it and am now back online shopping for a kit. I have a great wife. Now she says I can't start a second plane until the first one is in the air.

You are on the right track. Try to get your license in the plane you want or at least close to it. You could take an intro flight in Sonoma in the Citabria I flew for my TW endorsement. It's Sonoma Flying School and the instructor is Travis Morton. Tell him I said hello.