Kiev prop

I had to get rid of my Kiev prop I just just received it last week to replace my Warp. Damn it was beautiful !!!!
It just wouldn't perform as well. The dealer told me that I was the ONLY one of more than 500 props he has sold that did not get at least a 5-10 mph increase in cruise speed (that figures)
Here are the numbers:

KIEV:
(1) 12 degrees pitch, 4800 static,100mph at 5000rpm,5500 max throttle
(2) 11 " " , 5000 " , 90 ' " " ,5800 " "
(3) 10 " " , 5200 " , 80 " " " ,would exceed 5800

Notes: The pitch settings are per Kievs pitch adjustment tool not actual angles,the Kiev was 1 lb lighter. The Kiev was a whole lot smoother (like a turbine). During approach it took 2800 rpm to maintain 55mph approach speed vs idle on the Warp. ( kind of like going prop full increase on a constant speed) This was fine as the Kiev is a broader aerodynamic prop vs a slab. It was smooth,smooth,smooth !
WARP:
(1) 5200 static,90mph at 5000 rpm,5700 full throttle

Conclusion: I LOVED the looks of the Kiev but you can look only so much so I went back to my Warp. Bummer !! If I could have reached 5200 static (required) and the same cruise speed as the Warp,I would have kept it in a heartbeat ! I think the round cowl on my Fox is probably the reason I didn't get excellent results. The blade twist on the Kiev starts right at the hub whereas the twist on the Warp starts further out resulting in more air being stuffed into the cowl with the Kiev and more drag. (my theory anyway)The CHT and Oil temperatures were sure cooler with the Kiev
The production on these props is pretty well sold out for the next 3 months as it is a pretty popular prop in this area of the country. I sold it in an hour.
Dick Maddux
Rotax 912 UL
Milton,Fl

I'm doubley sorry to hear your Kiev didn't perform well, both for you and for me. I have a model 4 Speedster that's not yet flying. I removed a GSC and ordered a new Kiev. It's, at least the best looking prop I've seen. I'll let y'all know how it does. James Thomas

I don't know,. I have a hard time keeping my eye on the prop when it's spinning :cool: performance would over rule any cosmetic appeal,..but it is a georgous prop,.do they offer an adaptable IFA version?

Dick, try the IVO light prop in either ground adjustable or in-flight adjustable. You'll be done shopping props. and having to sell them after 2 flights. Smoother than the Warps and if you get the ground adjustable it takes about 20 seconds to try another pitch setting. No protractors or one blade tracking differently than the other two. You should be easily cruising at between 105 and 110 mph with strut fairings and the 912 Rotax.

I believe the Kiev comes in ground adjustable only but not sure.You could check the web site.
I am going to fly this morning and check out my UMA tach to see if I am getting correct readings on my tach with a digital tach checker. That might be the problem although relative readings would still put the Warp ahead I think.
Steve ,thanks for your input on the IVO prop,I will check it out. Where is the best source?I am not really shopping for a new prop.The Warp is just fine.The whole thing started when I saw a couple of Highlanders with the Kiev prop. One was white,the other black. It was the most beautiful prop I had ever seen! Looked like it belonged on a Ferrrari. Well, after a year of admiring it but absolutely no logical reason to buy one a friend of mine put one on a new Paradise SLSA (from Brazil) and picked up 10 mph in cruise. That was enough for me so I bought one. But,as the man says,you just can't stare at it,it has to perform ! Besides none of the rednecks down here know what an airplane is let alone a prop.
Actually I think it would perform if I could get it right. The dealer is as frustrated as I am because in every case,except mine,they do exceptionaly well. I might be the tach.
One other thing to add. The Warp prop hub attachment to the engine prop flange is far superior,I think. The HP hub I have uses bushings and the outer holes vs the inner 8mm the Kiev uses. It seems to me this would be a more stable prop mount,much like Cont/Lyc uses.
By the way,my airplane has not been very fast. I have the 80 hp 912UL engine,fat tires,"bush gear" and I normally cruise around 5000 rpm vs 5500. I am not usually in a hurry to get anywhere. 85-90mph is about it.But if I could of picked up a few mph with the Kiev ... wellll.
Dick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DesertFox4

Dick, try the IVO light prop in either ground adjustable or in-flight adjustable. You'll be done shopping props. and having to sell them after 2 flights. Smoother than the Warps and if you get the ground adjustable it takes about 20 seconds to try another pitch setting. No protractors or one blade tracking differently than the other two. You should be easily cruising at between 105 and 110 mph with strut fairings and the 912 Rotax.

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SHHHH. quit. don't give out my secret to my aircraft performance. I love wizing by other kitfox's that have another prop:D. Seriously, if you go IVO you won't go back.

Well I checked my tach today with a digital tach check instrument and the engine tach was close enough...bummer !
Steve,give me a good place to check on the Ivo prop complete with pictures of it.
Thanks,
Dick

go here. http://www.ivoprop.com/ John sells them as well.

Hi Folk, I Have the two blade manuel in flight adjustable woodcomp varia composite prop from junkers czech republic. Have no doubt this combination suits the 80hp rotax, smooth, simple light and easy to install, max rpm on take off cruise 90 kts 5200 rpm, If I wish can idle engine 600 rpm, mk 4 1050lb speedster options reg G-FOXF. ps still have the gsc hanging in the garage,

Steve,
Thanks for the info on the Ivoprop. I checked out the site. I am a little skeptical now. I don't particularly like the idea of tape on the leading edge. It's a little cheap in my mind. I had to do it on a Hegy prop once to keep from abrading the leading edge but then of course,it was wood.(used electrical tape) I much prefer the inlaid nickle on my Warp or the brass on the Kiev. The Ivo is not a particullarly good looking prop but the pitch adjustment looks nice! I have never seen one (again East/West US thing)
I think it is difficult to tell hype from real numbers.It's kind of whatever you own is the best. I had heard the same improvement in performance from the Kiev prop and I sure like it. It is certainly the best looking. I really don't doubt the performance improvement is there but ,not on my aircraft. That smooth cowl has got to make a difference OR...OR.. I had the wrong size prop.
I looked at the Whirlwind ,know nothing about it other than it is 3 lbs heavier then my Warp. I did see it on Johns aircraft at Lakeland last year. It too is a nice looking prop.
I guess I am obsessing over this issue but,like all of us, I have an intense interest in my plane and want the best !
Dick

Well guess what ! As my new Kiev went out the door , I double checked the paper work and found out that I had the wrong prop for my engine ! The specification sheet showed that the distributor sent the wrong prop. My engine has a 2.27 gearbox ratio vs the 2.43. The one I had was for the 2.43. The specs list another model prop for the 2.27. I called the distributor and asked him to check with the factory to see if this made any difference. If it does,I will order another one cause, I LIKE IT !
Dick

I'm sure happy to hear that you received the wrong prop. I didn't buy my Kiev based on the good looks alone. I had heard good things about their performance and about how smooth and quiet they are. I hope you'll let us know how this all turns out. Thanks, James Thomas

Well,I did it again. I bought the 67.5 inch Kiev which is supposed to be spot on for my engine and gear ratio. The last one was for the 100hp and and gave me much degraded performance so I sold it to a friend that had a 912ULS. The new prop is beautiful,turbine smooth and quiet. In fact a neighbor said there was a dramatic decrease in noise when I took off. Those are the good points (which is enough to keep it)Unfortunately, it is no better in performance then my Warp was. Oh well !
I had concidered the IVO cause the reports are good but it is too "butt ugly" for me and looks like it should be on a model airplane.
In reality, my plane has alot of drag and a small engine so perhaps I am expecting a bit much. More speed would be nice (cruise @ 5000 rpm is 90mph) but climb is better and more fun. I don't fly very far anyway.
There, I have just talked myself into liking my Kiev even more !
Dick

I'm glad quiet and smooth is for you. For me my Butt ugly IVO pushes my airplane at 120mph. When I had the 90 with the ultra light prop I was getting about 117mph. Oh well I guess speed isn't everything.

Hey y'all, let me jump in with my 2 cents worth. We're comparing apples and oranges here. Dick's model 4 is a 80 hp, draggy, long wing, fat tire plane with a fixed pitch prop that cruises at 90 at 5000 rpm. I seriously doubt a fixed pitch Ivo would do any better. On the other hand Steve's model 4 is a Speedster with 25% more power and an in-flight (if I remember right) adjustable prop. Steve didn't mention cruise rpm. To some 5500 rpm is cruise and to some like Dick, 5000 rpm is his preferred cruise rpm. I have an Ivo on another plane. It's a good prop but with a fixed pitch, I don't believe it to be any better that many other of the better props. I have a Kiev on an 80 hp 912 Speedster that is not yet finished and I'll have to wait and see how it performs but one thing I know, it is about 10 times prettier than the Ivo. That might not matter to you but it matters to me. Since Just Aircraft uses it, there's probably a good reason since it's priced higher than the Ivo. The comparisons tests I've seen doesn't show much difference in thrust among different props so all things being equal, I'll go with pretty every time. Who doesn't like pretty airplanes. The good looks is what sold me on the Kitfox to begin with. OK, I rambling again. I'm enjoying the discussion. Y'all keep it up. James Thomas

I had a long wing at one time, when I switched to short wing the speeds didn't change. I originally had a powerfin prop and went to the IVO prop, I jumped up about 30mph. Now if you want to go against my airplane with a IVO fixed, say the word, I'll set my prop for a good fixed spot and blow your keiv away. I can set my prop at any cruise speed and once set is a fixed pitch prop, I'll just loose on the take off, which I feel will still blow you away.

Oh, and right now that 120mph is at setting 5200cruise because that's what the factory wants wide open. I can lower it to 5000 and still have the same cruise speed. Most the time I run full throttle and just adjust to the rpm I want. On take off I just make the rpm stay below 5800, once level flight I adjust to bring it down to the 5200. The only advantage to inflight adjust is for take off. My cruise will always be the same weither I adjusted on the ground or in the air. Cruise at 5000 is 5000 no matter if adjusted in the air or on the ground. sorry my prop rules.

I don't care what my prop looks like. When I'm flying and having fun I can't see it.

my plane also has the fat tires

And Steve,your plane has a bigger engine than mine (hmmmm sounds like a pecker contest)
I kind of figured this would get some results when I posted and called the Ivo "butt ugly" but that is good. It's good to trade ideas
If I were to clean my plane up and install a bigger engine then of course I would get more speed BUT that is also more money and I have already put alot into it already (new "bush gear",electric trim,instruments,prop,etc)
I now have my plane where I want it. It is a beauty to me and performs well. I have dispatched all of the items that bugged me about the plane and I really enjoy it.
I have heard nothing but good about the Ivo but again when I saw the Kiev,that was it. I wanted it. It is not getting me the extra cruise speed as I was led to believe it would but holly mackeral is it smooth,and I haven't lost any speed as with the earlier prop. On approach it is a sheer delight as the "big board" effect of the blade (compared to my Warp) gives a beautiful more controlable descent profile. It is difficult to put into words but you can sure feel the difference. The prop is 1 lb lighter and has to be easier on the gearbox.
However,I am not giving my Warp up yet as I am still in the test phase with my Kiev. I have adjusted the pitch 3 times and am going to do some more minor tweeking. That Warp is a fine prop,tough as nails!
James,I think you will like the Kiev. If you have any questions about it give me a call
Dick

Not meaning for this to be a pecker contest. I did state in a earlier post that I had both the long wing and the 80 912ul engine and I still went 90mph with the powerfin prop. When I shortened the wings down the speed did not increase just my turn radius increased and beleive me that gave me a big smile. Than I put the IVO prop on (this is with the 80 engine) and the speed went way up. Now I have the 100 engine and the speed only went up 3 mph. But my take off, wow try about 2000fpm. I am totally sure if I put my aircraft back to 80 engine long wing with the ultralight IVO I would blow you away. Another thing I have on my aircraft is that heavy grove gear.

There are three things that I would not trade out on my airplane, The engine, either it be the 80 or 100 rotax, I think either engine is suppurb on the kitfox. My IVO prop, again either the ultra light or the medium. Lastly the grove gear, I've landed on some pretty rough stuff, the gear takes a lickn' and keeps on tickn'.

I always fly low and slow through the trenches and flatten out the prop to take off setting and pull the throttle back to 5000rpm, that still gives me 82kts, seems this is your full throttle balls to the walls speed. I still have another 30mph left when I want it.

Steve,
My cruise speed both with the Warp and Kiev is about 88 mph @ 5000 rpm.Max cruise @ 5500 is about 100.
I would sure prefer the shorter wings as you have. These long wings are a pain in the hot turbulent air we have here.It can sure be a rough ride much worse than the Pacer I used to own. Sometimes I feel like a cork riding on the water. I have thought of shorting then but don't know I want to go thru the hassle. Comes a point when you have to accept things the way that they are (such as this horrible oil spill I have in my back yard !)
And wether I go fast or go slow I still have to look at the same old crappy flat landscape. I envy the beautiful country you get to see.
I used to take my Pacer up to my cabin in the NC mountains but havent been there in the Kitfox yet. I am still trying to find a part time hanger there as I don't want to leave it outside. Not any available.
Any way ,I digress
Take care !
Dick Maddux
Fox 4, 912UL (80 hp)
Milton,Fl

I'm really spoiled to what I have here. Great weather (well not today) and great variety of landscapes. Must be why I fly between 300-400 hrs a years.:D

I’m a bit puzzled by your posting and the statement the Kiev didn’t perform as well as your Warp Drive.

Maybe I’m just not reading your post correctly. Help me understand the numbers.

You gave a report for three pitch settings on the Kiev and only one pitch setting for the Warp.

KIEV:
(1) 12 degrees pitch, 4800 static,100mph at 5000rpm,5500 max throttle
(2) 11 " " , 5000 " , 90 ' " " ,5800 " "
(3) 10 " " , 5200 " , 80 " " " ,would exceed 5800

WARP:
(1) 5200 static,90mph at 5000 rpm,5700 full throttle

Your Kiev prop with 11 degree setting gave a speed equal to the Warp Drive with lower RPM of 5000, yet still had low enough pitch to produce 5800 RPM at full throttle. This would indicate you had reserve power available at high RPM.

Your numbers also indicate 12 degrees was too much, so if you compromise with a pitch at 11.5 degrees you would be getting a higher cruise speed at 5200 and perhaps a maximum of 5700 at full throttle.

From the way I see the data, your Kiev prop actually performed better at 5000 RPM than the warp drive at 5200 RPM.



John Pitkin
Greenville, Texas

John,
The minimum static/take off rpm required by Rotax (per service bulletin ) is 5200 rpm. By setting the pitch setting on the Kiev prop to acheive this I got less than 80 mph @ 5000 rpm in cruise. The Warp gave me 5300 static and about 88 mph in cruise at 5000 rpm. So in fact the Kiev achieved almost 10mph slower cruise speed. The Kiev prop I first received was not correct for my engine and I sold it to a friend for his 100hp Paradise. They are getting better results from the Kiev.
However,I purchased and now have mounted the correct Kiev for my engine. It is about 3 inches shorter in diameter . When set at the proper 5200 static the performance is about the same to slightly less then my Warp as far as speed goes. (close enough) That is not the only factor however. Besides its beauty it is increadibly smooth,like a turbine. It is over a pound lighter and appears to have solved my "run on " problem with my engine. When I would shut the engine down on occasion the engine would turn backwards for several revolutions requiring me to inspect the clearances on the valves for air in the lifters. This is a real pain !! and was driving me nuts as it happened several times. So there are more factors than just cruise speed.
I feel the reason I am not getting the increased speed is because of the radial cowl. The twist on the Kiev prop starts earlier than the Warp. I believe it is forcing alot more air into the cowl and that causes more drag. My oil temp confirms that as the oil cooler is close to the hub and the temp is now about 10 - 15 degrees cooler than it was (same temp conditions) due to the increased airflow. With a smooth cowl it would appear that more airflow would go around it thus less drag and more speed.
As mentioned earlier ,my neighbor keeps commenting on how much quieter the Kiev is vs the Warp ,on take off.
Overall I am very happy with the Kiev. It's a beautiful thing and sure compliments the airplane I think. And at least so far, when I shut the engine down I don't have to worry about it turning backwards.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
912UL (80 hp, 2.27 gear ratio)

Hello me again. Sure seems that the kiev prop is ineffecient. I have no oil heat problems, I cruise at a real fast speed, if I want that. If I want slower I pull the power way back and flatten the prop, now I sip the fuel and go your speed. I recently helped a guy in montana put on the IVO ultralight on his 90 ul engine like yours and he gained 30mph, he was running the speeds you have now. The only comment back from him was holy crap. Smoothness, well I balanced my prop on the aircraft and wow! what a difference, smooth as silk. Quit, I fly over my house and my wife says she never hears me, we live within 5 miles from the airport, so my house is on the way out on take off. So I guess my prop is quit as well. But than again, I can care less what others think of how noisy I am. I have to say, I cleaned my prop last night of bugs and I think my prop is pretty as you call it. I'll say it again, I love my IVO, especially when I take off out of a back country stip, like this weekend, I'll be fully loaded with the wife going into johnson creek in idaho. ya baby.

Well now you are making me feel bad Steve. You have started an itch. Even though I still think the Ivo is butt ugly its not that exspensive but then I also have my original Warp.( maybe I could start a prop shop) But then there is also EBAY. I could just as easily put my Kiev on the wall instead of the Warp and experiment with the IVO,maybe sell it if I wasn't happy with it.( with my luck I would loose even more speed) I don't know I am still early on into my Kiev but maybe . Hmmmmmm !
By the way I have never had any hot oil or CHT problems with any of the props. The problem is keeping it warm. I have air blocks on both my oil cooler and coolant radiators even in this god awful 97 degree heat. The even cooler oil temp I am getting was mentioned as an indicator of more ram air being shoved into my cowl by the increased twist of the Kiev.
Do you have a spinner on your IVO ?
Dick

This is a pretty old thread but the instead of starting a new one, here is a question involving Kievprop. Recently I acquired one to replace an over torqued GSC. Instructions show the bolts for blades being inserted from engine side. With the spinner backing plate there isn't enough room to get in there with an allen wrench. Pitch adjustments need to be made by taking the entire prop off the plane to get at the bolts. Has anyone drilled holes in the backing plate to be able to insert allen wrench and adjust pitch more easily on the plane? Any feedback also on what pitch people are running on a 582 if there are any out there. Thanks