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Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Im replacing my original 912 80HP with a new one.
Its going into my Model IV and so far the removal of the original engine has gone smoothly. The new engine is unpacked on the bench,
1. I switched the intake and carbs so that it will fit into the Model IV round cowl engine mount.
2. The CDI is in the way of the oil tank.
3. The spider is interfering with the tank.
4. The tank is too tall for the model IV so I had it shortened, the screen is still to tall and the oil intake tube inside the lid of the tank is too long. I'm really enjoying this, said no one ...ever.
I can't wait to start the Dynon EMS D10 install. So, anyone else done this? Pointers, Spoiler alerts ... anything, ... anyone?
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Why do you need to modify the oil tank? I've had two of these planes and both used the stock tank...
I modified the firewall side of the engine mount with a tab to accept the ignition systems. Link
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
I shortened my oil tank also, as did a guy in California. The firewall was made per the plans. I only removed the round portion on the bottom, so there were no changes to the pickup tube or the screen.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
The original tank was shorter by a couple inches to accommodate the round cowl. otherwise the oil door on the top won't close. The tank ends up crushing the electrical braid on the back of the engine. The new tube in the lid is going to have to be shortened as well, it goes the full length of the oil tank as does the screen.
I like the placement of your modules. Did you have to lengthen the plug wires or did you use what you had? I"ll check on it today and start the fabrication process. I am going to have some help here for a week so I think I can get er done when my buddy arrives. He's an airplane guy from Alaska and pretty much works for food when he's on my place. :)
I"ll send some pics as well.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Are the early and late oil tanks a different length,also shifting the modules away from heat and vibration to the cabin side of the firewall can only be a good thing.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Why not use your old oil tank ?
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
The old tanks and new tanks are all the same hight. The Model IV round cowl had the tank shortened due to the tight space of the cowl. It reduces the oil quantity a minuscule amount.
I want to use the new tank because it has an upgraded hose connection to A/N fittings and I like the fact that the inlet and outlet ports are on the lid. It makes identifying a crack or failure easy and and easier fix than pulling the tank.
It looks like I will need to get longer plug wires and sheaths to move the CDI but I agree, moving it is the only option for lifespan of the part. Here is a picture of the tank and you can see that I need to shorten the rest of the hardware associated with the tank.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
when I changed out my engine, I sent the tank to John and he fixed it up to the right height for me. I also updated to the new motor mount and new muffler. once I had everything put together on the new motor mount and mounts I went to the airport and swapped out engines in about an hour. easy very easy.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
I finished the tank tonight. It took about an hour to trim the extra length from the intake tube and trim the screen. Then I cleaned everything to make sure there was no metal shavings or screen material where it shouldn't be. I'll re organize the spider tomorrow for a good position on top of the engine for the tank.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
2. I moved my CDI to the upper right motor mount. (See photos.)
3. I moved the expansion tank forward by rotating the head water outlets, replacing one of the expansion tank outlets with an elbow by brazing on a Rotax water pump elbow, and replacing all the tubing.
4. I did the normal tank mods.
In addition, you may find the new starter runs into your firewall. I machined off the lugs on the back of the starter and made a recess in my firewall. (See photo.)
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wheels
I finished the tank tonight. It took about an hour to trim the extra length from the intake tube...
you never did say what engine you were putting in. uls has the bigger starter yes, you need to bang the firewall in a little or something. also take the cover off your old water pump and put it on the new motor, the hoses will work out better if you do. get that cdi yes on the motor mount, all things will work out for this, all wires and stuff.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
now, just a heads up. I don't know if you have the newer mount or the old one that is 95 vintage. but the newer mounts have a thicker wall. the old mounts use to break all the time. I had one, I changed it over when I put in my new 912uls.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
The new engine is an 80 HP Rotax just like the old one. The mount is the new style. I think your right about the water pump cover. I'll look into it.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Steve,
You mentioned the older mounts breaking.. where did the breaks occur?
I am reasonably sure I have an older mount in spite of the later date of original licensing of the airframe my engine came from.
Bud
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
pretty close to the tank, if you have the model 4. I'm trying to place it. usually having a wedge welded in the area helped, but that even broke on mine. nice to have a new motor mount. sorry I just can't picture it. I'll look and see if I had a picture of the old mount in my stuff.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/alb...pictureid=6028
this is where the crack is, see the pieces that are welded on. that's for support, it cracks there. right in front of the tank. there is two spots.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Steve,
Thanks. I will be watching the mount closely and will watch that part of the mount specifically. Glad to have light gray paint since a crack should show as a black line.
These bits of information are a valuable resource, a clear benefit of this forum. Thanks to all who contribute. I have made many changes and decisions based on the discussions.
Bud
IV 1200
912UL
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
what happened to me was I went to a flyin, richland wa. I had the tube break right off right where those supports are. The people in the shop next to the fbo went and welded the motormount for me so I could get back home. That held up until years later when I put my new engine in, of course I went to the 912uls from the 912ul and I didn't want that bigger engine on the old mount so I had John M. send a new mount with my new engine. So Happy with the new engine and the engine mount. love my fox. :D
The new motor mount has a thicker wall on the tubing. well worth it.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wheels
The new engine is an 80 HP Rotax just like the old one. The mount is the new style. I think your right about the water pump cover. I'll look into it.
the water pump cover has the tubes on at least one outlet rotated so a hose will make it to the water thingy on top better. trust me, you want that water pump cover. you should be able to reuse the gasket on your new motor. that is if it's a brand new one with 0 hours.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
The tube cracking on the older engine mount might look like cracked paint, but a small magnifying glass will reveal metal flakes from the broken pieces chafing under vibration. Just put the new mount on if you experience that. Its a quick safe fix.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Ok, the elbow was 180 degrees off what I needed, the fix was easy. those hex bolts are 90 inch lb torque and an easy R/R. I didn't replace the o ring in there as it was not flat anyplace and has never been used except for the test run at the factory.
today is water hose, reservoir move day.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Well, I may pay for my smarminess sooner than later.
I said don't modify the 912 but that's all Im doing right now. The mods are to fit the engine into a model IV round cowl so its not like I'm really doing surgery to boost performance, but some of it is ... well. ... challenging. I need to move the coolant tank to satisfy the oil reservoir placement. The water coolant elbows on the heads don't line up, can I heat them up and separate them from their flange? re-clock them and put in new hoses to fit? can't find it in the heavy maint. manual
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
I suspect those are threaded & sealed with retaining compound, so you could probably heat, take it apart, clean & reassemble with new compound, but I'm not certain. You might do like my friend Stan did - swap that one out with the one on your old engine.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
I may end up doing that, but honestly I hate to use old parts on this pretty little motor. Ah, the dilemma.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
They are held in place by retaining compound loctite 648.
You can heat them to release the compound. You'll need to get them hot enough for the tube to easily turn out. The tube has very fine aluminum threads, if you force removing, the threads will gall. Also make sure the threads stay aligned when removing or they will get damaged. A wooden dowl in the tube is handy.
Use a pick to clean the threads on both pieces, use loctite 648 to install .
Careful to not tighten past where you need for positioning, its better to have it slightly loose than to try to force another turn.
The Loctite 648 does the holding, not the threads, and it holds and seals very well.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Thanks Kmach. I'll order the 648 tonight and heat them with a heat gun. I'll use the dowl and a good welding glove to handle them. :)
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
OOPs, looks like Rotax forgot to tell Kitfox what the engine mount dimensions are. Or the old engine and the new engine are NOT ... EXACTLY the same.
:eek:
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Old and new engines are not the same. The dimension for the hole in the gearbox is a little different... but you found that out.
Ralph
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
I got the adapters Machined. They will get re powder coated tomorrow.
This photo is of the back of the engine.
I want to remove the bracket holding the braided bundle but I believe the pick up will be disturbed if I do. I don't want to start an electrical issue. Are the new pick ups fixed in such a way that I can just reinstall that screw holding the bracket?
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Yes. You'll be fine to do that.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Thanks, I"m probably manufacturing a better lifting shackle today with a friend who has a machine shop. I"ll send pix if its a cool fit.
Jay AKA Wheels
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Sagas being what they are, ... this one continues.:p
This is a picture of the engine mount for the model IV on the engine. Is this water tube threaded like the one I heated up on the cylinder and can I orient it to effectively clear the offending member of the engine mount system?
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wheels
... Is this water tube threaded like the one I heated up on the cylinder and can I orient it to effectively clear the offending member of the engine mount system?
Yes and yes. One of them has to be clocked at a different angle than they come from the factory at on the 7SS installation with a new ULS engine also. You need to carefully clean the threads and use the correct retaining compound when reinstalling it at the needed angle. You've probably already been through that and aware of how it's done, I guess.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Thanks. I"ll just have to be careful in that area with heat I think. there is an oil seal under the water pump impellor. I"m searching the heavy manual for info on removal. P.S. your up late. Thanks for the quick reply. I"m tired.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Yep, up late... trying to get ready for a road trip up to Montana before Oshkosh. I believe you want to remove the housing that the tubes are connected to from the rest of the pump, before you have to apply heat and do the job. It should come off clean and allow reuse of the gasket
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Yup, more disassembly of a brand new engine. I'm really going to like flying it huh?:p
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
I re-clocked many of my water fittings and replaced a few with other angles. As John said you just remove the offending parts to heat them. It doesn't take much heat at all. Here's 8000 words:
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
THANKYOU. I just made it one word. Yup, Your pix are a book for me. Really helpful. Thank you.
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Re: Changing out a 912 80 HP in a model IV
Ok Im back at it. I took some time off to handle my ranch and other sundry duties. Now I can concentrate on the engine install. I took off the water pump housing to remove and re-clock the water elbows that were pointing at the engine mount vibration isolators. I got one out, the other is stuck. I heated it to 200 degrees with a heat gun, it turned about 90 degrees and stopped. Any ideas, or is it a pretty sure bet that it is galled and unusable.