ADS-B Out

Curious what everybody is thinking about doing for the 2020 ADS-B Mandate?

I've been looking at solutions for my plane, which has a GTX-320 Transponder,
and an AK-350 Encoder. So far what I have been able to figure out
is that a UAT based system like the GDL-94, or the Freeflight Rangr
would work since the have a built-in WAAS GPS. However I still can't
figure out that after I add this system, do I toss my existing transponder
and Encoder? Or do I have to some how wire this new gear to talk to
the transponder, and encoder?

It seems that the ADS-B out system needs to ALSO output the ATC squawk
code, so is this something that can be entered through a separate "head"
unit? OR does it have to tie to the transponder? If it has to tie to the
transponder then that rules out mine, since it has not serial out, etc.

If in fact I have to add a "head" unit to enter the squawk, does that
replace the existing transponder, in effect allowing me to toss out the
transponder/encode which I already have?

Also despite my advocacy of Paper charts, etc. I do in fact have a tablet
with Garmin Pilot, and I think it's a waste of money to buy an ADS-B In
solution for it, which will likely be replicated with the "required" equipment
for the airplane anyway?

After all the above is sorted out, does my wife divorce me for spending $5K
that doesn't take her to a nice warm, and sunny place in the middle of the
winter???

Ideas?

Thanks!
Jeff Hays

the Navworx system can pick up the squawk code from any transponder (decodes it off the antenna cable). I recently installed one and am quite happy with it.
(also << than $5K though still not warm and tropical)

Is that the ADS600-BG system that you used?

Jeff

Since I'm using Foreflight with a Stratus 2 ads-b in, I'm very interested in the announced transponder from Appareo Systems. It's supposed to be tray compatible with a Garmin 327 which is what I'm using now. It also provides a cable to both power the Stratus 2 and to provide it with the "ownship" signal to prevent false positives from your own plane.

It's vaporware at the moment, so we'll see.
http://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n85ae

Is that the ADS600-BG system that you used?

Jeff

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ADS600-B I think, see this thread (non certified unit)
http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5974

I talked to Bill at Navworx yesterday, and asked about the B unit. He said it
has the functionality, but would require upgrade before 2020 to meet the
mandate as it wasn't fully compliant. He said to be fully compliant would
require the BG. Not sure exactly why that was though. Might be something
to check. Looks like a decent system, and I like the way it works.

Jeff

Is there a list of the thousand plus airports that will require the system or is the entire U.S. airspace affected by the mandate? Does it eliminate me flying in G airspace in my backyard? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but consider the source.

I believe it's only required where you need a Mode-C transponder today.

Anything that requires Mode-C will require it. If you installed something
currently that met the mandate you would have to install a device in
the $3K+ range (if you do it yourself) ...

So I'm going to wait. I talked to AOPA Advocacy on the phone, and they
are "hoping/working" for a solution, such as an ADS-B "Out", portable
device similar to the current "In" only devices. Which could be carried
onboard and make the flight legal.

The Navworx device, or the Garmin GDL-84 UAT look nice, BUT the price
tag doesn't ...

Jeff

Random thoughts -

Actually I'm a bit surprised I don't see more about this issue in these forums,
this ADS-B mandate is real, and even at the cheap end of the "best-guessed"
cost. Each one of us who doesn't fly out of the sticks is going to end up
paying well over $1K, and quite possibly $3-5K just to keep flying our planes.

I personally like the idea of ADS-B, just not the cost associated.

Jeff

After a lot of phone calls, I think I know what is needed for ADS-B Out
compliance. I'm personally waiting to see if prices drop. But were a person to
do it today. To go from a "normal" Mode-C Transponder, with a conventional
Encoder ... I created this diagram. Hope it helps make sense out of this mess.
If I got something horribly wrong, I'll fix the diagram.

Both Navworx, and Freeflight are similar, but differ a bit in how they
listen to the transponder output. Navworx listens on the cable to the
transponder antenna, Freeflight samples the RF output.

Thanks!
Jeff

Looks good though it is my understanding that the Navworx can pick up both squawk code and alt from the transponder antenna cable. This would eliminate the need for a new encoder (that outputs RS232). Also the antennas can be cheap, ball and stick for the UAT and basic GPS (<$20) mounted internally.

Looks like Navworx has something even simpler than that:

http://www.navworx.com/products-PADS-B.php

The FAA hasn't approved portables yet, but according to an AOPA rep I
talked to on the phone, they are trying to get the FAA to approve them.

I hope they approve portables, even if there is a requirement to tie the
device to an N-Number, at least it might save some money.

The diagram I drew is my interpretation from phone calls, so I'm not sure
how many systems hook up the same way. I do know that the ADS-B out MUST report the squawk code, and the Encoder reported altitude in the
data it sends out.

Jeff

This may be the news we've all been waiting for.


.

Cool, I wonder if that means my un-certified Navworx unit now meets the mandate.

Building equipment that is tested per the TSO performance and environmental requirements is one thing and not difficult to do. Generating the paperwork and getting FAA approval for a formal TSO takes a lot of manhours (money) and time. This policy change is very significant.

my thought, like all electronics. I'm waiting. In 5 years, things will change a lot, along with cost. think computers and TV's. I don't have transponder in kitfox and don't use flight following. I turn on the tunes and off the radios. how about that. at least until It's time to land. than I need my radio.:)

one more thing. with the faa saying an experimental does not need a tso'd device. one can only think what kind of equipment will come out now. I'd wait the 5 years and than buy.

Certainly a good point Slyfox, in my case I put the unit in because I value the information it gives me now. If it also happens to meet the mandate for 5 years from now all the better. I, and more importantly SWMBO, like seeing all the little planes on the GPS (except Slyfox and others without transponders:))
It will certainly be an interesting space to watch with more options coming.

All of these are good points. I like to have alone time with just me and the airplane at times, maybe some tunes to plug into the intercom but the main reason I installed a transponder in the Kitfox was so the bigger guys can see me. Flying professionally it's nice to see small planes show up on the TCAS at an uncontrolled airport when approaching at 150-180 knots until final or base to final. I like to visually see others from my Kitfox and also see someone in a Kitfox from the thing with two hairdryers strapped to the tail end. That being said, I'll probably wait until closer to the mandate for ADS-B to upgrade for the same reasons Slyfox is.

IFLY has a new system coming out..and it is ADS-B AHRS compatible..they offer a package now with the 720..I'm waiting for the 740 package,..should be out in a couple months..new GPS and ADS-B with AHRS , then I will just need the 406

here I sit thinking. when are we going to use ads-b. isn't it just an extension of mode c. that means the only time you need it is if you do flight following or go into an airport that needs a transponder or flight following. for many of us flying kitfox, we generally have just a hand held radio. so ads-b should not effect most of us. am I correct. class e, g, and d doesn't need this.

now flying through Montana is going to be the same, below 12000 ft all this is still going to be useless. am I correct there also. at least when I went to osh in my rv that was true. as soon as I dropped below 12k I was done. I know the coverage is getting better, but in the mountains???

I do most of my flying now within 50 miles and I avoid class c airspace in both airplanes, so why do I need a transponder? from what I understand ads-b has your signature and it lets radar know who you are. and if you get all the equipment, big bucks right now, you can see all the airplanes and info on them out there. that is all that is changing, plus you are suppose to get free weather, if you pay the bucks. am I right.

I'm thinking, just keep it simple and let the big birds have the system. I'll fly out the window and have my tunes on and have fun. like flying is suppose to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slyfox

here I sit thinking. when are we going to use ads-b. isn't it just an extension of mode c. that means the only time you need it is if you do flight following or go into an airport that needs a transponder or flight following. for many of us flying kitfox, we generally have just a hand held radio. so ads-b should not effect most of us. am I correct. class e, g, and d doesn't need this.

now flying through Montana is going to be the same, below 12000 ft all this is still going to be useless. am I correct there also. at least when I went to osh in my rv that was true. as soon as I dropped below 12k I was done. I know the coverage is getting better, but in the mountains???

I do most of my flying now within 50 miles and I avoid class c airspace in both airplanes, so why do I need a transponder? from what I understand ads-b has your signature and it lets radar know who you are. and if you get all the equipment, big bucks right now, you can see all the airplanes and info on them out there. that is all that is changing, plus you are suppose to get free weather, if you pay the bucks. am I right.

I'm thinking, just keep it simple and let the big birds have the system. I'll fly out the window and have my tunes on and have fun. like flying is suppose to be.

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Yes, but some of us fly in an environment full of mode C veils.

Affordable ads-b will be very important to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Waid

Yes, but some of us fly in an environment full of mode C veils.

Affordable ads-b will be very important to me.

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How very true, Tom. Also, if you want to limit your options and don't have a desire to travel across this great country in your airplane, or go up through Canada to Alaska, or go across the ocean to the Bahamas, or go to Oshkosh by whatever route you choose, then you don't have to play the game. I respect that. However, many of us can't leave our home airports without mode C now. Times change. The "system" includes a huge percentage of the airspace and the "little guys" too... that's just the way it is.

when I went to osh back in 2013 I didn't use the transponder but once, I think I chose to go into a class c airport, didn't need to. on the way back(over Montana) I went vfr above the clouds for about 300 miles, my wife felt better about going all the way up to 13k and that was the only time I could get flight following, again helped the wife cause we were talking to someone. other than that I could have done the whole trip without the transponder. So for me I think it is not needed. as far as seeing the us. my wife has ra. which is arthritis and she is no longer wanting to fly. so I bought her an rv, land based vehicle and she now prefers that. I can see where many of you want to use the system. mode c vails and such and flight following. I never used it. seattle well that is the only area and the weather isn't so favorable for vfr over there very often so I don't go there. Spokane, nice vfr and good flying.

I will always keep the kitfox simple, rv maybe. not with the current cost. lets see what 5 years does. I'm thinking a bunch.

I fly in the Chicago area, Mode-C is simply a way of life for me, so unless
I want to be VERY limited where I can go, I have to have it. Which means I
have to have ADS-B Out as well. However at $5K ... I'm waiting for better
options.

Jeff

absolutely. like I said, a lot can happen in 5 years.

I'm thinking between dynon and garmin, there will be a bunch of options available by then. I think it was mentioned that ifly is coming out with something. I think holding out is the key right now.

Don't take anything I say for gospel, but I was just reading up on the new version 12 software upgrade (free) for the Dynon Skyview system. They are in process of also upgrading their software (also free) for their mode S transponder package that interfaces with the Skyview WAAS GPS. It kind of sounded like that upgrade will make the Dynon transponder compatible with the 2020 ADS-B out mandate. The only other piece of the puzzle is an acceptable WAAS enabled GPS to talk to the transponder. Until now, this GPS had to be a TSO'd unit which the Skyview GPS is not. But if Tom Waid's information is true, then the Skyview GPS should be compatible with the mandate, since it already talks to the transponder and is a high quality WAAS unit. So maybe those of us with the Skyview system and mode S transponder will be able to skate into the 2020 ADS-B out mandate for no extra bucks. Woo-Hoo! I hope I am not all wet on this.

I don't think I'll be flying to the states too much after 2020...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esser

I don't think I'll be flying to the states too much after 2020...

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I believe Canada will require ADS-B equipment in larger/heavier & faster aircraft before the U.S. deadline. I wouldn't be too surprised if it becomes a requirement for smaller aircraft also sometime in the not too distant future. Plus, you have the 12" registration number requirement that includes homebuilts, no hand guns allowed, etc... or am I wrong? (It wouldn't be the first time!) I know there is a lot of "bending of the rules" that occurs, but it seems that many of the new rules, regulations, & standards that come about in the U.S. in recent years are due to bureaucrats & regulators trying to copy & be just like the rest of the world, including possibly Canada. At least it sometimes seems that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrevens

I believe Canada will require ADS-B equipment in larger/heavier & faster aircraft before the U.S. deadline. I wouldn't be too surprised if it becomes a requirement for smaller aircraft also sometime in the not too distant future. Plus, you have the 12" registration number requirement that includes homebuilts, no hand guns allowed, etc... or am I wrong? (It wouldn't be the first time!) I know there is a lot of "bending of the rules" that occurs, but it seems that many of the new rules, regulations, & standards that come about in the U.S. in recent years are due to bureaucrats & regulators trying to copy & be just like the rest of the world, including possibly Canada. At least it sometimes seems that way.

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Canada has ADS-B in the high arctic and over the oceanic airspace. There are ADS-B stations in Canada too but I'm not sure on the southern coverage. We do have a requirement for 10" registration. There is one case where you need 12" but I can't think of it off the top of my head but you are correct, US Aircraft can fly in with 4". We are allowed handguns but you need a restricted portion on your license and you can't carry it where ever you want.

TC tried to implement 406 ELTs 10 years ago and the debate raged on. We kicked and screamed because back then a 406 ELT was $5000+. It still isn't mandatory after all of our lobbying but the prices are down significantly. Slightly similar story to the ADS-B debate.

It will be interesting to see when Canada requires it for GA as it is the direction the world is going. But at the same time, our airspace is not congested like Teterboro, Atlanta, Chicago, etc. so maybe they will let us live in peace.

Actually everything about ADS-B is good. The ONLY problem is that
the cost being forced on us is way too much.

In my 25 years of flying, I've had a number of near misses, and I sure like
the idea of being able to display who's where when on my tablet. Not having
worry about some "freedom is everything" Cowboy, who doesn't bother to
ever announce anything, and blasts through the air like it's the last frontier.

ADS-B is good, just the cost is bad.

Jeff

I see it getting better, just have to hold out a little bit. Yes I agree, good system.

Quote:

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In my 25 years of flying, I've had a number of near misses, and I sure like
the idea of being able to display who's where when on my tablet. Not having
worry about some "freedom is everything" Cowboy, who doesn't bother to
ever announce anything, and blasts through the air like it's the last frontier.

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My son had that problem when he was a student at an "uncontrolled" field. Even though the "freedom flyer" had a radio - he wasn't even monitoring it and held short, as my son was on short final the a**hole took the runway and my son had to abort and go around. Narrowly keeping out of a turn, climb, stall and getting killed.

The old timer when confronted, said: I don't need to use a radio here (his home port). Even though he had one! What a BS attitude!

My son and I have had others and since that event - my son has changed career intentions from pro pilot (a shame) and we both fly for fun only - when it is still fun and the a..holes aren't around!

unfortunately ads-b is not going to fix stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n85ae

Actually everything about ADS-B is good. The ONLY problem is that
the cost being forced on us is way too much.

In my 25 years of flying, I've had a number of near misses, and I sure like
the idea of being able to display who's where when on my tablet. Not having
worry about some "freedom is everything" Cowboy, who doesn't bother to
ever announce anything, and blasts through the air like it's the last frontier.

ADS-B is good, just the cost is bad.

Jeff

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Jeff,

Unfortunately, you're still going to have to worry about the "cowboys", and one potential that I can see is creating pilots who might have their eyes on the iPad or whatever, constantly, and not outside looking for the "cowboys" who aren't going to equip, or other targets that the fancy system is going to miss.

I've had experiences like Danzer 1's son also. A recent "event" was a guy flying a Citabria and practicing touch & goes at Greeley, CO (GXY) - downwind (8 kts) - for a full half hour, and never once talking or acknowledging any communications from other pilots! Then he finally leaves after disrupting the traffic flow on a fairly busy day, and flies off to who knows where. Total jackass... they're out there and always will be.

I think everybody on this list has a handful of similar stories, and based
on numbers, likely some of the people reading this have been the cause of
an avoidable near miss or two as well ... That's a sad statement isn't it?

Jeff

Yep... just don't let all the new toys make you complacent about looking outside the aircraft.

I totally agree with everything stated. Fortunately he was vigilant. Then with the stall horn going off and correcting and trying to keep an eye on where the "cowboy" was once airborne. He did a damn fine job and went around and landed. It was his 1st solo cross country. I'll leave out the rest of the details, but it was at ITR (Kit Carson).

As a note, it seems most of these "cowboys" avoid the big Denver circle (thank goodness). There are a lot of cowboys out here. It is why we actually prefer to op in and out of tower controlled airports. Yes we miss some of the little ones, but I'd rather live to fly another day. At least in tower controlled space (most) pilots act somewhat more courteous and responsible. Go figure!

IMHO and not for a second suggesting that all pilots at uncontrolled airports are cowboys - so lets not start that. Just food for thought, for those that affect others without considering the consequences.

Both of my close calls have been at non controlled airports. It's suppose to be pilot controlled, but most of the near misses are due to Captain Oblivious. I had a near miss on landing with a twin that was landing down wind. When I finally got on the ground, I walked into the FBO to find Captain Oblivious on the phone with the owner trying to blame everyone and everything but himself for running it off of the runway through the drainage ditch and into the barbed wire fence at the South End of the runway. My other was with a Glider Pilot that was flying, I'm talking on the Unicom Frequency no one responds, my Zaon PCAS shows an aircraft nearby. I'm looking and finely see the knife edge if the glider wing as he's banking. He was above and in front of me maybe 500 feet.