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Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Is anyone considering using a product called "Oratex" to cover their KitFox wings and fuse?
Back in 2011 there was some discussion here about using a relatively new German covering product called Oratex. Here are the old threads:
http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/sho...ghlight=oratex
Oratex has two websites, one for Germany and the other for their US Distributor who is in, why of all places, Anchorage, Alaska !! :) Yeah Alaska !!!
Germany:
http://www.oracover.de/
USA
http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/oratex.html oratex6000
This new Oratex material comes in two thicknesses (which they designate as 600 & 6000). It has gotten a lot of discussion on some of the other sites:
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthrea ... ght=oratex
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthrea ... ght=oratex
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthrea ... ght=oratex
Claimed advantages include lighter weight, ease of application, availability in many colors, etc.
Right now I'm looking at building a somewhat larger non LSA 4 place aircraft, but I have always had very very high regard for Kitfox. Actually if the right deal came along, I'd probably jump on a Kitfox as well. There is no FAA regulation...( yet)... which says one can only own one aircraft. :)
Any KF builders care to share their thoughts ?
Safe skies....
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Hi, I saw it being used in Germany, they did an AN-2 Biplane with the oratec 6000.
But I didn't use it myself so far
Greets
Tuna
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I got a sample kit at OSH last year, which I haven't used yet. There was also a guy covering his Kitfox with the stuff there. He was doing it right outside on the grounds in the ultralight area. I'm going to play with it a little and see if it's a viable alternative for me.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Here is what an air-frame mechanic, with decades and decades of experience told me: Don't put anything on your plane that has not already been on planes at least 20 years. That advise was free, but worth big bucks (hear about the water born covering system tried on Ag-cats? Lasted 2-years, then required 100% recover). Roger
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Do you have a site I can visit about the agcat covering, would like to investigate the issue.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Flybyjim:
The Ag-cat story didn't come from the internet (surprise! ), it came from an actual mechanic standing in front of me. To be exact, he was buying my cassutt kit ( Reno air racer) a couple years back. He did the work on the Ag-cat himself. He said, even sitting outside, exposed to chemicals, oil and pesticides on a regular bases, the old solvent based process (Stits ?) will produce a finish that will last a solid 20 years.
Roger
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rogerh12
Here is what an air-frame mechanic, with decades and decades of experience told me: Don't put anything on your plane that has not already been on planes at least 20 years. r
While I know what the guy was getting at, I think this is one reason the aviation is held back. Attitudes like this are why we are just starting to get EFI 30 years later. There have been a lot of good start-ups that went bankrupt because everyone was waiting for the next guy.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rogerh12
Here is what an air-frame mechanic, with decades and decades of experience told me: [I]Don't put anything on your plane that has not already been on planes at least 20 years. Roger
I think I have to go with Roger and his friend on this one.
I checked the Oratex site and the preliminaries pretty much turned me off.
I didn't count the number of times "toxic" was mentioned, but it was a bunch. For an amateur builder who will cover one or maybe three airplanes in his lifetime, in my opinion, "toxic" is not an issue. I remember many times in the past where Polyfiber and its MEK based adhesive was panned with words like "extremely hazardous" and "carcinogenic". Check the MSDS. It is pretty benign unless you cover in a closed room or decide to see what it tastes like.
Then they talk about the "ten or more coats is common and 20 is not unheard of" and the time to apply as a big negative. I might have had ten coats on my first airplane, but I had a very complex color scheme that accounted for the last four coats. If you want a color scheme or a fine finish using Oratex you will have to paint it as well, though if you are OK with a single color on each panel - no paint required.
Check out the photo galleries. the fabric seems sort of transparent. Then the Problems with other fabrics gallery. I have seen this type of problem, but it has usually been after using one system for cover and then using an incompatible top coat system. I saw this a lot at a Rans fly-in where they used auto paint over Polyfiber.
In twenty years, I might change my mind.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I tend to be very cautious of the latest & greatest too. Being pretty old-fashioned, I really like "steam gauges" & the look of round dials, especially on something like a Kitfox. I'm gonna get a color tv someday also... when they perfect them. ;)
The Oratex is not translucent. It's opaque, very tough, & light. They make color-matching paint, trim material, etc. The glue seems to be similar to Stewart System's, which is really nice. It's a pretty slick idea, & ideally I'd like more "history" also before committing. Esser's got a good point, & technology's advance would be pretty slow if nobody jumped in on the ground floor.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
saw this covering system on line and was intrigued by the simplicity, sure does cut out a lot of work and need to build a paint booth in the shop. also will save a lot of weight. also I under stand that rans will offer it in the rans 6es kit that uses per finished envelopes. all that being said I think I would give a good look if I were going to cover another airplane and was looking to save time and weight. just my 2 ct.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I think what will be interesting is to see if many of the manufacturers like Just, Rans, Kitfox, Backcountry Super cubs, etc begin to use it. The weight and application time savings are considerable.
This will be something to ask at Oshkosh 2014. :)
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I was unable to get a firm price on materials to recover an Avid/Kitfox size from the manufacturer or US distributor at OSH last year, as they did not have an appropriate plane-specific materials list figured at that time. All I got was "subject to exchange rates" and "approximately 20% less materials cost than competitors".
The attached 2011 Poly Fiber materials and price list says an Avid/Kitfox covering kit cost $2,470 suggesting the Oratex covering cost should come in ~$1,976. Very curious just how accurate that figure might be.
Has anyone even got definitive info regarding a materials list and total cost for a Kitfox yet or, better yet, actually purchased the product?
Thanks.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Reading their website, believe they say the fabric is more expensive but in the long run, it will be less counting not having to buy equipment, chemicals, etc. The polyfiber quote is minus paint. The new covering is paint free (but can be painted). If I were covering a light, slow aircraft, I'd seriously consider using their product. You could dress it up with decals.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Doing some reading the cost of materials to do a super cub is $6000 for everything but the wings-$9000 total including the wings. They claim the labor and painting costs offset that. Would probably worth it to not have to paint it then have chipping and cracking issues down the road. But they admit on their site no real long term testing has been done to see how it fares with the elements. They do mention having good luck with it on cubs in the extremes of Alaska.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I would have 3 concerns about the Oratex:
- Does it have enough silver UV protection built into it? In my Polyfiber process 3 cross coats (6 total coats) of silver were used.
- If you were using it unpainted, and had a color scheme where you need to change color along a structurally unsupported line, you would have to make an unsupported seam along that line. How durable is that seam?
- All the finish tapes would only be held down by one application of glue. Again I think of all the layers of Polybrush holding my finish tapes in place.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Hi TeamKitfox members,
I just recently read an interesting article in the January 2014 issue of EAA Experimenter (see link) about a STOL-plane covered with Oratex that I thought I shoul share with you all.
http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/247918
The builder/pilot wanted to reduce the weight and used Oratex and he was very positive about using it again.
In the article it is written that the plane unfortunately burnt down in a hanger fire, but there's no further comment about the effect from fire on the covering.
Maybe the builder/pilot would be willing to share some experience about covering, durability, the effect from fire on the covering, etc. if he's contacted?
If all charactertics descibed in the datasheets are valid, it would be very nice to use the Oratex covering. Imagine the weight reduction and not having to paint more than the aesthetics?
Later on I will try tro find out more about the German company who's producing the material.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Check out these videos on Youtube, thay covered an AN-2 Russian biplane with ORATEX 6000, I've seen it and it look great.
Also check out the Kiebitz from MENS, it's covered with Oratex as well.
Greets from Germany
Tuna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ee1tWDdfbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DlZGL28Y2s
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I made the statement that Oratex was not translucent... in looking at the sample I have, it appeared to be opaque. My apologies to Highwing - you were right Lowell. When you get the bright sun shining through it, the structure behind can be discerned. I would guess that the 600 material would be more translucent than the 6000 that I have. It sure is very tough stuff though - I covered a test structure with my sample, & after I extracted my foot from my mouth, I stomped on it (the sample), hit it & poked it. It can stretch a little with such abuse, but a heat gun shrinks it right up again. It is more puncture resistant than Poly-Fiber/Ceconite also, as well as lighter & scratch resistant. Easily field-repaired.
Has anyone on this forum used this material yet? It would be great to hear of experience. I've talked to a fella' named Roger Peterson, in Texas, who has covered a couple of Cubs with it. He loves it. My understanding is that there is one aircraft that has been covered with this material for 10 years at this point, and is looking good.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
If it is even somewhat translucent I don't see how it could possibly be UV resistant. The Polyfiber manual has you putting on multiple coats of the silver UV Polyspray until you can't see any light with a 60 watt bulb on the other side of the fabric. Maybe I am missing something here-is there a way to filter out all UV rays with a translucent material?
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
The goal of UV protectant (in this case) is to protect the covering material, not whatever's on the other side. On a window you are protecting the stuff on the inside of the window (furnishings, carpet, etc.). The Polyfiber method is simply used for a layman (home builder) to discern if you have enough coverage for their method (and is likely overkill). I'm suspecting the Oratex pre-impregnated material is more efficient (being factory applied) and (I believe) it has been tested to ensure it's adequate for it's intended purpose.
Greg
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I was told by betteraircraftfabric.com that the Oratex 6000 is $76.85 per square yard and the Oratex 600 is $53.80 per square yard. It should be noted that that is square yard vice linear yard in case you want to compare with ceconite or Polly. I am just wondering if a Kitfox SS7 can be covered with 600 vice 6000. According to their website any LSA can be covered with 600.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Hi bushfly,
The Oratex 600 is approved for aircraft with a MTOW of 1323# (600 Kg). The 6000 goes clear up to 13,228# (6000 Kg). The 600 can probably be compared to the light PolyFiber fabric. I think that a SS7 covered with 600 would be marginal. The airframe is designed for 1550# gross, & you would be limiting yourself if you ever wanted to increase your weight to that limit (taking it out of the LSA category). That would be my concern. The 6000 is tougher, while still being considerably lighter than a conventionally finished/painted covering.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Quote:
Originally Posted by
snowpaw
Hi TeamKitfox members,
I just recently read an interesting article in the January 2014 issue of EAA Experimenter (see link) about a STOL-plane covered with Oratex that I thought I shoul share with you all.
http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/247918
The builder/pilot wanted to reduce the weight and used Oratex and he was very positive about using it again.
Hi All.. Lil' Cub burned December 17th 2013 and we started the re-build mid January 2014. After three months of pretty intense work (for my wife and I), retired grandparents, we have a new Lil' Cub and she flies better than ever.
One interesting thing we can report is the fabric was almost welded to the fuselage (after the fire).. it took vice grips and wire brushes to get the old stuff off.
We had flown a winter in Arizona (stored outside) and the summer in Alaska.. about 470 hours flying time before the burn and everything was holding together well.
The first time we rushed the process and completed the (fabric) on the entire Cub in 4 LONG days! This time more time was spent but it still is much faster/cleaner than anything out there. My wife has never been an aircraft buff but she likes to be involved in my projects.. she would always run the other way when it came time for fabric. This stuff is clean and with no stink she took over on the second build.. the fabric was hers all the way!
It's easy to apply however it stands much more heat than other processes, for me it was difficult to believe it and apply the required heat. It lays down smooth and unlike the other glues.. when a seam is re-heated the glue turns liquid again between the layers and gets even smoother the second pass!
Before I rattle on too much.. we don't sell the stuff and are not associated with ABetterFabric (Lars) but when I like something.. I like to rave a bit.
Oratex allows us to still feel productive without the health dangers.. growing up in a body shop we ingested enough bad stuff.
In closing we figured we saved someplace between 20 and 25 pounds on our Experimental Cub build.. if you can find something to replace with Carbon or Titanium it generally costs between $500 and $1000 per loss of pounds. Its like getting a $10K-$20K check when doing the fabric!! We all want performance and know weight to HP is where it's at.
If you want more 'biased' independent report give a call.
Thankz for listening,
frank (Lil'Cub)
907-841-0298
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
For what it's worth.
I talked to a buddy last week and he is in the process of covering the wings of a friend's Rans S-7 with Oratex. He has built and covered Three or four Kitfoxes, two Rans S-7s and now this Rans. He recently worked in a restoration shop that does Cubs - he was the fabric guy.
He is experienced with Polyfiber and Stewart Systems.
His take on Oratex:
Four days - no way! That is the first thing he mentioned. They have more than four days on just the S-7 wings.
Translucent - You can see the gray of the underlying structure through it.
Difficult to work with - have to glue fabric panels together.
Difficult to smooth - Permanent wrinkles.
Does he like the result - No. Does his friend the S-7 owner like the result - No.
Is it expensive - Yes. He mentioned don't forget the cost of the adhesive
Consider that this is one level second hand, but if anyone has specific questions, drop a PM and I will pass the questions on or hopefully get his permission to release his contact info.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HighWing
For what it's worth.
I talked to a buddy last week and he is in the process of covering the wings of a friend's Rans S-7 with Oratex.
Well.. where to start. First I apologize for going against a long term user of the site.. I am a lurker and have no right and only appeared because my wife and I.. like the stuff.
1- Start day we completed the first wing and started the second.
http://www.alarmspro.com/Fabric/4.png
Completion AFTER the DAR had signed off the build.
http://www.alarmspro.com/Fabric/5.png
PLEASE NOTE THESE PICTURES ARE FROM A WEB CAM WITH DATE/TIME.
2- Translucent - He got me there.. it looks light. This is a photo with low angle Alaska sun shining directly on the side.. note the tail.
http://www.alarmspro.com/Fabric/2.JPG
3- Difficult to work with.. well it takes about 30 minutes to place glue on one wing.. BOTH the ribs and fabric. If you do it light the dry time is about 3 hours. Now your ready to tack in place with an iron and go to town.
4- Difficult to smooth- Hmm I'll rely on pictures of my wife doing the tail.. takes care but sure nice once complete. (Not a ripple)
http://www.alarmspro.com/Fabric/6.JPG
The thing is.. if you don't get it smooth at first you can do it again and it only gets better.
Wing:
http://www.alarmspro.com/Fabric/1.JPG
http://www.alarmspro.com/Fabric/7.JPG
5- Does he like the result (No) - My wife has only helped on one other fabric job but the result was better than most.
6- Expensive- I guess so.. I'll sure do it again based on the weight $avings.
Just having my wife out there made the cost seem slight.
I can easily see why an ol' timer that already has a system worked out with paint booth, guns, compressor and fresh air supply might not want to venture into Oratex however I believe it is good for the rest. When I painted (two part) every day I thought I was superman.. no longer.
Sorry for infesting the list with chatter, again I just like the stuff. If we can help with any specific questions please call or PM.
Over and Out
frank
907-841-0298
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I talked on the phone with a fella' named Roger Peterson in Sweeney, Texas who's covered several Super Cubs with Oratex. He loves it, & said he wouldn't ever use anything else again. He has videos on the net detailing a lot of his experience with it.
I also talked to Randy at RANS... they are doing some covering with it now. They are differing from the recommended installation process, in that they are sewing up "envelopes" in order to speed up the production process and get a good fit around certain kinds of curves. I don't know how successfully that is working for them, but getting a good, tight, definitely wrinkle-free job doesn't seem to be particularly difficult at all. It requires installing the fabric as tight as possible to begin with, as the shrink percentage is a little less than PolyFiber for instance. There is much less worry about deforming structure, but the tautness seems great. The necessary skills/techniques are a little different than PolyFiber. Paint can cover a "multitude of sins", & if you're looking for an Oshkosh award-winning look, you probably want to paint. If you're looking for the lightest, strongest, fastest installation and completely safe & non-toxic it's worth a look.
I know a guy in South Dakota covering a Cub. They've covered aircraft as big as one of the Antonov AN-2 biplanes with it.
Just Aircraft has also been using some of it, I've been told.
I don't know if Frank (Little Cub) is using the 600 or 6000 material, but I would imagine the slight translucence is less with the thicker 6000. I don't mind that at all on the few examples I've seen.
FWIW.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Frank,
Never mind the "lurker" deal, I appreciate your input as I too am considering Oratex. I was put-off by the Kitfox that was being covered at Oshkosh last year and the price, but the weight and time savings are certainly appealing. Appears your wife did a nice looking job. I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out for John.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
OK, so I confess... I received my shipment of Oratex stuff yesterday. I'm sure there are those on this list who will shake their heads, but I think I'm going to do fine with it. A lot of soul-searching & research the last couple of years, & I finally jumped in. After seeing it at OSH a couple of times, & talking to several users, then playing with the sample kit I got, I made up my mind. Invested in a good digital heat gun. You still need a good iron also (digital is good). A heat gun is highly discouraged with PolyFiber, but works beautifully with Oratex. Oratex doesn't start to loosen, unlike PolyFiber, when you heat it above a certain point. It shrinks & is fine right up to the point where it is melted & destroyed - I believe about 485 deg. F. The "hot melt" glue is neat. Brush it on, let it dry, then it is melted with heat (100 deg. C, 212 deg. F) & pressure from the iron (or heat gun & felt pad) to stick things together, which also starts a chemical reaction. This causes the bond to strengthen, & the glue will not melt again until a much higher temperature. I'll try to post some pictures as the project progresses.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
How much did it cost you in materials for the kitfox and how many yards did you get?
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
john, what iron did you get?
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
bush fly,
I carefully calculated the necessary material by laying it all out on graph paper. One thing that made it doable with less yardage was that Oratex was able to provide the material in a width of 76.5", so I can get the wing panels & then the tail feathers (except the vertical fin) out of the remaining strip in that area. Everything else comes out of the remaining length. The SS tail surfaces are larger than, for instance, on a IV. So I ordered 25m (82') of this extra wide batch. It leaves me enough extra for perhaps a tail surface screwup, & plenty for doilies, etc. Not a lot of margin for error. I'm going to take my time... definitely won't be a 4 day job for me. Asking how much it cost is like asking a guy how much he makes. I'm embarrassed to say, especially since I've got all this nice PolyFiber material & tape from the kit (I did sell the polybrush & glue). What's your name anyway? You look like my cousin from Wisconsin. ;)
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
cap01,
I made a digital iron, but gave it to a friend. So I bought a Toko T14 that I found on the internet for a good price because I didn't want to go through the hassle of building another one at this stage.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrevens
I talked on the phone with a fella' named Roger Peterson in Sweeney, Texas who's covered several Super Cubs with Oratex. He loves it...
OH OH! Someone must have really screwed up! Apparently the judges at Oshkosh didn't get the memo saying "Paint can cover a "multitude of sins", & if you're looking for an Oshkosh award-winning look, you probably want to paint." The very first aircraft to attend Oshkosh (2012,) covered with Oratex UL 600, won the Ultralight Reserve Grand Champion award. http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/...odacious04.jpg
No paint was required. The fabric is great, and I would absolutely use it again. Let me know if you have any questions. John
Additional info here - http://cluttonfred.info/post/2820954...s#.U30RyeNOWbE Interview video here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw-WRTf9LqY
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
I know that plane very well from Airventure '12.
The covering was definitely a factor in why it got the Lindy. Innovation in products and usage is something closely looked at. It looked very nice.
If I wasn't already committed to poly fiber on my project, I might give it a look...
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
for the last project I got the toko t8 . I figured for 60 dollars I'd try it out . the thing worked fantastic , wish I would have popped for the t14
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Hi John,
I remember your plane at OSH. It was beautiful! I tried to locate & check out every Oratex covered ship that I could at Oshkosh the last couple of years. I certainly didn't mean to lump every user of a certain product in one basket. You're absolutely right - I misspoke about an "Oshkosh award winning look" and I do apologize! I was actually paraphrasing an opinion that was expressed to me by a major kit-built manufacturer. I have seen some terrible looking Oratex jobs, as well as Ceconite or PolyFiber ones, & frankly paint CAN help to hide a lot from the casual observer. But there is no reason that an aircraft covered with Oratex can't potentially be an award winner anyplace. I like what I see with it, I like it's properties & strength, and that is why I decided to make the substantial financial investment to cover my project with it, when I already had most everything to do a PolyFiber job. I hope I can do half as good as you did!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jsteere
OH OH! Someone must have really screwed up! Apparently the judges at Oshkosh didn't get the memo saying "Paint can cover a "multitude of sins", & if you're looking for an Oshkosh award-winning look, you probably want to paint." The very first aircraft to attend Oshkosh (2012,) covered with Oratex UL 600, won the Ultralight Reserve Grand Champion award.
No paint was required. The fabric is great, and I would absolutely use it again. Let me know if you have any questions. John
Additional info here -
http://cluttonfred.info/post/2820954...s#.U30RyeNOWbE Interview video here -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw-WRTf9LqY
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
John it's Bushfly or Ed Hensel in WI. I will be covering my SS in two months. I considered Oratex but it is hard to justify dropping over $6,000 when I can use Stewart System and fabric that came with the kit for far less.
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Hey Ed,
Thanks! Man, you look like my cousin.
I understand completely. There was a lot of soul-searching before I dove in.
Good luck with your covering!
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bushfly
John it's Bushfly or Ed Hensel in WI...
Is that the going rate for a kitfox sized plane?
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Re: Oratex Fabric Covering Revisited
By the time you figure all the finish tapes, glue, etc.... yep.